Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Why I'm Not A Conservative: The "America Sucks" Right

I've always enjoyed LaShawn Barber's blog, but it's hard for me to find someone who I'm more often in disagreement with whenever it comes to social issues. Case in point: her assertion that America is a dying civilization. Why? Primarily because traditional marriage isn't viewed with enough respect.

What I fond odd about LaShawn's piece was that she uses as her evidence a book written in 1947. In other words, a book published 50 years ago--and in those 50 years, we have only grown more prosperous, more healthy, more long-lived, and more free as a nation. Of the dozens of times we've gone to war since 1947, we've been victorious in all but two of those conflicts (Somalia and Vietnam).

For a country that's on the verge of collapse, we seem to be doing pretty well.

I'm almost 40 myself, and I recall reading headlines about how the American family was falling apart since the first time I picked up a newspaper more than 30 years ago.

But here's a news-flash for the dour "America sucks" conservatives: the divorce rate is down, not up. Illegitimacy is down, not up. The "free love" movement ended over 20 years ago. Single motherhood is viewed as either an unfortunate situation or is outright frowned on by most of society and is on the decline. And sexually transmitted diseases are less of a problem today than when our grandparents were young.

Also, isn't there something just a wee bit hypocritical about conservatives who angrily rail against abortion, and yet also angrily rail against single motherhood? So what do you want: to continue to stigmatize women who get into unfortunate circumstances so they'll feel they have to run and get abortions? Or will you do more to support them and help them when this happens to them rather than condemning them as vile fornicators?

Or is the answer just "people should have less out of wedlock sex?" But you know, it's a lie to say that didn't exist until this generation. As I've noted, there were hundreds of thousands of syphilitics in FDR's America. Where do you think they came from? Toilet seats?

I also wonder at the fascination some conservatives have for the ancient Romans. They were a vicious, savage people, given to mass murder on a scale that would make Saddam Hussein seem like a piker--and that was while their Empire was growing. Julius Caesar, before he seized power and turned Rome into an Empire, boasted of slaughtering over 100,000 people in just one of his jaunts into Gaul. Not 100,000 on the battlefield either--no, this included razing villages, hacking off the heads of children, women, old men, the crippled and lame. This was celebrated as a part of Ceasar's greatness, with triumphal celebrations and murals and statues showing in gory detail as Ceasar and his troops raped barbarian women and sliced barbarian children's heads off.

All that, and Rome's greatest days were yet ahead of her.

Furthermore, if you look at the history of the Romans, you'll find that well before they were an Empire, when they were merely a Republic, their values included a casual attitude about homosexuality--it was frowned on for a patrician to take the "submissive" role in sexual relationships (to catch rather than pitch, to put it crassly) but nothing whatever was thought of a male Roman taking the dominant sexual position in a homosexual encounter, whether married or not. And nobody cared at all what slaves did--slaves making up the majority of the inhabitants of Rome by most estimates, at least throughout most of the Republic and early Empire periods.

Women could be punished for sex outside of marriage, but that mostly because of the possibility of illegitimacy. For men, no one cared if they were unfaithful--indeed, the concept of "unfaithful" pretty much didn't exist for men. It was expected that they would have sex outside of marriage, and most of them did.

And here I must emphasize: all this was before Rome's ascendancy as a great and mighty Empire, as well as during her ascendancy. Such things only fell into disrepute in the later stages of the Empire, after Christianity became the primary religion. This is where Dr. Zimmerman, the author LaShawn quotes, is hoist with his own petard: the Emperor Constantine was the one who legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire, and converted to it himself. Subsequently it became the official religion of the Empire--and around that time, the Empire split in two, and began a long slow decline.

In other words, the evil values Dr. Zimmerman despises were part of Roman society before and during her ascendancy as a civilization--and with the coming of Christianity came the beginning of Rome's dissolution and decline.

So, not only does what LaShawn describe not match America today, but it doesn't match the Roman Republic or Empire, either.

We talk a lot about the Hate-America Left. There's no doubt that they do exist--the Michael Moores, the Noam Chomskys, the Howard Zinns, and the other members of the fascist and communist apologist left. But one of the reasons I turned my back on conservatism was the dour Hate-America Right.

Who are they? The ones who say God no longer loves or protects America because we've fallen into wickedness and hedonism. The ones who suggest we got what was coming to us on 9/11 because God won't protect a country that considers allowing gay people get married. The ones who say we're a lazy, stupid, illiterate, slovenly bunch of uncouth pigs and vile hedonistic sinners.

Here's my question for the Hate-America Right: where was the point exactly that America was protected by God's grace? Was it before or after the British sacked Washington DC and burned the Capital and the White House? Was it before or after Gettysberg and Antietam? Before or after the bombing of the Maine? Before or after Pearl Harbor? Before or after the bombing of the Cole? Before or after 9/11?

And while we're at it, how do you think the average American should have reacted in 1941 if, when Pearl Harbor was attacked, conservatives claimed that the hundreds of thousands of cases of syphilis that raged throughout Roosevelt's America, and the shocking rate of young couples getting married because the girl was pregnant, was the reason? That God lifted his hand and let the Japs blow our Navy out of the water because of evil American fornicators?

Is anyone honestly suggesting that the Marine barracks were bombed 20 years ago in Beirut because America was a den of sinfulness on Ronald Reagan's watch? That Americans were taken hostage in Iran because Jimmy Carter's America had "fallen from God?"

Me? I think America is a great and glorious country, one I'm very proud of. I despise the Hate-America left, but I feel lke the Hate-America right doesn't get confronted anywhere near often enough.

Posted by Dean | Permalink | Technorati Trackbacks
Rhianna (aka rmschoon) (mail) (www):
DAYM! LaShawn rattle your cage. Oh well, your mercuric temperment is part of your attraction. ;)

Dean, just as you don't focus solely on America's ills, I don't focus solely on Rome's ills. She was brutal, but she did what she had to in order to survive and prosper. Many Americans don't have the stomach for that any longer, and instead prefer the 'oh, they can be re-hibiliated' line for Paedophiles, rapists, mass murderers, arsonists, computer hackers, etc.

Yes, Rome was mysoginistic. Find some ancient European civilizations that weren't. (I'll get you started, Sparta. Another favorite of mine, very militaristic, but women still didn't have the right to vote, and they practised infantacide.)

Just because I live and breath Rome does not make me think America is worse than she was, or that we're not as great. We're better if only by the fact of universal sufferage.

As for the body counts, EH. I don't really give a rat's arse. Do you think for a moment that Rome's enemies didn't have a clue what was coming if they opposed them? It's not as if some great locus swarm decinded on a totally uniformed population.

Honestly, Rome was 2000 years ago. I love her today, but that doesn't mean I don't love her bastard child even more. Just sayin'...
9.15.2005 3:11am
caltechgirl (www):

As I've noted, there were hundreds of thousands of syphilitics in FDR's America. Where do you think they came from? Toilet seats?


LOL!
9.15.2005 3:22am
caltechgirl (www):
But seriously, I think that moral decline is not the biggest problem. It's the lazy-ass whiner mentality so prevalent these days.
9.15.2005 3:26am
Dean Esmay:
I'm not angry.

I just wonder what it is that conservatives think they're talking about when they act as if there was some halcyon age when we were more religious and now we're a bunch of evil heathen swine. In what measurable sense is that supportable? I suppose on abortion you could say that--maybe--but in any other sense? I don't see it.

Also, LaShawn says God no longer protects us because of our wickedness. So I asked a specific question: did God lift his hand from protecting us before or after Pearl Harbor? Before or after the Cole? Before or after the Iranian Hostage Crisis? When exactly?

As for Rome: I have no love for the Romans at all. Admiration for some of their engineering accomplishments, and their literature. But they were incredibly brutal. Rape and pedophilia were considered normal behavior by those people at the height of their Republic as well as the height of their Empire, and their concept of "marital fidelity," at least for men, would be considered wildly licentious today. And they didn't seriously begin to decline until AFTER Christian values came in and softened them up. LaShawn cites a book that says Rome declined when Roman marriage declined, but look closely at what Roman marriage really was LONG before they declined, and it would make most modern Christians blanch.
9.15.2005 4:12am
Kevin D (mail) (www):
Short of a parting of some sea or a pillar of flame by day and one of smoke by night I believe you'd seek to explain away any sign of God's power, Dean. I for one believe that God allowed the attack on Pearl to occur to get the U.S. involved in the war. I believe it certianly possible that America's rejection of God (I'm not gonna just blame it on the "gays" like some people) may well have enabled it to occur. Frankly, Dean, you're convinced God, the Christian God, does not exist and I don't know if there's anything in the world that could convince you otherwise. So, why you bother to ask, "When exactly did God leave America?" when you won't even accept evidence of His existance seems pointless to me. You're not asking an honest question because there can be no answer given that you'd accept.

How can you accept an answer of His leaving when you don't even accept He came?
9.15.2005 5:21am
Dean Esmay:
The question doesn't really apply: LaShawn says God has stopped protecting America because we're wicked. Okay. When did the protection start, and when did it stop, and what is the basis for the claim?

Furthermore, if you believe this stuff--that God protected us once, but now stopped because we're so wicked, how is that honestly any different from the Chomskys et. al. who rail against evil American imperialism and greed and so on?

Noam Chomsky claims to be a patriot. So does Michael Moore. They're liars. I say anyone who says America is a wicked evil nation no longer worthy of God's protection is no different--and it doesn't matter what I think about God, it matters what those saying it think about God.
9.15.2005 5:38am
Mark Noonan (mail) (www):
Dean,

I'll have to take issue with your history there, old buddy...

Rome was a Republic as it rose - a very stern Republic. It was only, oh, about after the conquest of Greece that Rome began to experience the rampant sexuality, luxury and corruption which eventually did in the Republic and paved the way for Empire.

It was as the moral underpinnings of Roman society decayed that the Repubic based upon those morals also decayed - Rome became more corrupt, more rapacious, more merciless as its morals and its freedom died (and the Roman Republic was essentially dead decades before the time of Ceasar - Ceasar could do what he did because the Roman government could be bought by any general with plunder to spread around). Gladiatorial contests only became blood baths after the old Roman ways had died. The Empire managed to temporarily halt the slide into disintegration by resort to naked force, but the rot remained and by the late second century - about 130 years before Christianity was legalised - Rome was already an empty shell just waiting for enemies to do away with the political and social corpse. It was upon the ruins of Roman civilization that the Christian church rebuilt a new society - preserving what it could of the Roman world, but making a pretty clean break with the past and starting out on a new path.

There was, of course, never a golden age when God was honored by all...but the plain fact of the matter is that back about 50 years ago, not only did kids not take guns to school for a shooting spree - but did take them to school for gun club activities - but the very concept that a child would ever do such a thing was inconceivable. Certainly there was illegitimacy 50 years ago - but nowhere near the levels of today (levels which are, thankfully, less than they were ten years ago but still staggering compared to where they once were). Of course men have always lied, cheated and stole - but once upon a time, we did honor morality more than we do today.

The emblem of our modern moral disintegration, in my view, is the 50 year old man married to a 30 year old "trophy wife". He got married the first time at 22 (just out of college) and for 25 years worked his way up to wealth and power - supported each step of the way by the woman he married those many years ago...arrived at the top, he divorces his wife and hooks up with some young cutie. We pass without comment upon this sort of activity - we accept it as normal. A normal society would ostracise a man who did that.

We do not and can not expect perfection from our fellow human beings, but we must expect that they will try to do the right thing - and when someone does do the wrong thing, the rest of society has to call them on it. We've kept retreating - kept being bamboozled by people who demand that we not judge the actions of others...until today, in 2005, we put on TV with nary an eye batted a "lady" who appeared in an amature porn presentation...we simply are too chickenshit to say "good God, get that trash off of the tube! Think what sort of bad example we are setting!".

Now, some of my fellow conservatives do get a bit morbid about it all - after all, if we truly are Christians, then we know that we win in the end. The sin of pride is the worst of the deadly sins - and it is a prideful thing for a Christian to have scorn for those who sin. Recognise error; yes. Attempt to correct the errant; yes. But love all and pray for all and trust that God will set things to right in His good time. I fall into this sin of pride all the time - though since I am aware of it these days I do try to stop myself. I'm getting better at it.

But, also, make no mistake about it - morally, we are a very depraved society. We have many problems which are in whole or in part caused by our cowardly unwillingness to call evil what it is.
9.15.2005 5:45am
Rhianna (aka rmschoon) (mail) (www):
I don't believe in imploring the protection of the Good Lord. As Lincoln is quoted
<blockquote>
Sir my concern is not whether God is on our side. My great concern is to be on God's side.
</blockquote>

I have never thought it prudent to request God's support, nor do I think the evil acts of man are done to us because God doesn't support us. To follow that fallacy of argument, Able must have angered God, thus gaining divine retribution by being murdered at the hand of Cain. Utter luncay, in my opinon.

Now, I do implore my chosen God and Goddess (Mars and Minerva) when it comes to the US military going into battle. As I do to seek protection for hubby now that he's deployed. However, they are very specific about what they 'do'. Also, I don't expect them to protect the nation, just her war fighters as they are fighters too. If they don't, I don't believe it's because they kissed the bullet or bomb that kills or wounds one of our troops.

We were never that 'religious' to begin with. I was raised in the SBC. I can tell you more sinnin' goes on than even the Bible has named! Thank you, the vast majority of those demanding we 'return to God' are a bunch of hypocritical folks that don't feel inclined to follow their own relgious teachings.

Thus, religion by and large is not needed in the public domain. That does not, however, mean I am against religion in the public domain. If I don't want to see/hear/practice it, I don't.
9.15.2005 5:51am
Kevin D (mail) (www):

I say anyone who says America is a wicked evil nation no longer worthy of God's protection is no different--and it doesn't matter what I think about God, it matters what those saying it think about God.

So, the prophets of the Old Testament, when they spoke about coming judgements against Israel, were they anti-Israel? Or, rather, were they more concerned, as Rhianna quotes:

"...to be on God's side."

I'll be frank, my allegiance does not lay with any worldy nation. As the Bible tells me, my citizenship is not with the world (or this great nation) but with the kingdom of God. However, as I happen to abide in the world at this moment it's standing with God is of great concern to me.

The prophets of the Tanakh spoke about Israel's wickedness not because they hated her but because they loved her. In return they were often at the recieving end of a high velocity stone or two or a few dozen. Dean, you call us anti-American or America haters fine. That's quite tame by Tanakh standards as I expect no better treatment than they got. However I think it is quite naieve to think that America has not, nor ever would, fall short of what God expects of her. And to defend that shortcoming is worse condemning her to attack from foreign forces. You threaten to condemn the souls of her people. And I take that very seriously.
9.15.2005 6:17am
maor (mail):
The biblical prophets were lynched every now and then.
Because by predicting doom, they were considered as "rooting for the other side" whenever there was a war, which was often.

The trick to condemning sin is to avoid giving the impression that you think you are holier than everyone else.
9.15.2005 7:42am
Dean Esmay:
Mark my friend: The Roman Republic was founded in 510 BC. Julius Ceasar was appointed dictator in 44BC--and you just suggested Rome was already ruined about 100 years before Ceasar. That means they were "at their height" for only about 350 years. Furthermore, you just suggested their decline happened when they allowed Greek influence on their culture. Yet prior to Greek influence, Rome had very few artists, poets, philosophers, or historians. As a people, prior to importing Greek culture their greatest and proudest accomplishment was the rape of the Sabine women. It was also their practice to enslave anyone in Italy who wasn't Roman. It was also their habit to expose unwanted infants. All of that was going on from Rome's earliest days as a Republic.

So if underswtand you right, Mark, you suggest that Rome went into a period of "decline" wherein their population surged, their economy boomed, their influence expanded to become the largest nation in world history, and their art and literature and reached unprecedented heights of human accomplishmenet--and all that went on for about 400 years while they were busy "declining."

In the meantime, what is the basis for the view that before they were influenced by the Greeks, the Romans didn't view slaves as sexual playthings, or that they viewed MALE sexual fidelity as a high virtue? I've never seen anything to suggest that was true.


---

As for the American past: it was never unthinkable for kids to commit violence in school, Mark. Street gangs full of teenaged kids were taking guns, razors, chains, and knives to each other in America's cities before either of us was born. Such things were "unthinkable" only in small-town America--and given how before the 1920s or so the number of kids who went to school at all was probably a minority, I have to wonder even about that.

Furthermore, I seem to recall reading at least one study which concluded that by the 1950s, about 1 in 5 children were not related to the man living at home they called "father." 50 years ago it was more common for a girl to trap a man and marry him in order to "protect her honor." Meanwhile, as I've noted, America's raging syphilis epidemic prior to penicillin didn't happen due to toilet seats.

This is my problem with conservatives: they romanticize the past in order to make the present seem awful.
9.15.2005 8:25am
Mike (mail):
I'll take exception with one thing, Dean, and let the rest play out. the evidence does not prove that the USS Maine was bombed (or mined) in Havana. That was the accusation of the yellow press. The various commissions that studied the incident have pretty much settled on a magazine accident caused by a fire in a coal bunker. In other words, a regrettable accident.
9.15.2005 8:31am
Dean Esmay:
Yeah, you're right, most of the evidence seems to suggest the Maine was an accident.

So from the period of the Civil War until about World War I we had relative peace. Lots of other horrors, but divorce was certainly rarer. As was "illegitimacy" if by that we mean the mother was married to a man.
9.15.2005 8:41am
Trudy W. Schuett (mail) (www):
I remember watching TV as a little kid and wondering about all these people whose dads wore suits to work, and their moms were home all the time. We didn't know any people like that! ;>)

I've since seen both the left and the right mistake what was on TV in the 50s for what was really happening, as the occasion suited ther need of the moment.

When it comes to Christianity, I've found in the 3 years since I began studying it seriously, that there are a lot of different concepts, and they don't all agree. Right now there's a lot of discussion about whether God is responsible for things like hurricanes and wars, and some say no. While it makes more sense to me that Satan would be the one reponsible for the nasty stuff, since he is in control of man and nature, that seems to be a minority opinion.

I'm sure there will never be agreement on that point, as Christianity itself consists of a variety of sects and denominations that are so different in their beliefs, it's almost like they are different religions.
9.15.2005 9:04am
The Black Republican (mail) (www):
Dean, please don't paint all conservatives with that brush. There's a name for La Shawn's disease and it's called "paleoconservatism".

A few days ago, you posted an entry that said, "Why I'm not a neo-con". La Shawn (and Michael Savage, and Pat Buchanan, et al) is why I'm not a paleo. In between those extremes, the main body of conservatism sits - right behind Ronald Reagan - in the City on a Hill.

(And of course, it's not really "conservatism" at all...)
9.15.2005 9:08am
Trudy W. Schuett (mail) (www):
I got interrupted before I could finish my comment!

Anyway, I did want to make the point that romanticizing the past, no matter what era you like best, is probably a mistake. I happened to come across this bit of info on the British Criminal Tribes Act of 1871, while researching a speech I'm making next week. Scary stuff.

They often jailed entire families for life, in sex-segregated quarters so they couldn’t reproduce, because they believed one group was congenitally evil.

I can't think that America is dying, or anything close. In a state of fundamental change, yes. That ain't easy.
9.15.2005 9:32am
Eric R. Ashley (mail) (www):
One. History is cyclical which a lot of these "Doom is coming" folk mistake. They run a straight-line extrapolation, and gasp. But feedback mechanisms do kick in (and in fact the gaspers are one of them).

If we ran another forty years in straight line from Father Knows Best to gansta rappers, and from respect your father to kick the idiot in the head, and from marriage to single-motherhood, and so on and so forth....then yes, we would be toast.

Two. Rome had a very demanding morality, as I understand. A. Do better than Dad. Win more glory, and honor. Or you're a LOSER. B. Every Roman is responsible for the Republic. A tyrant steals your honor, and the only moral response is suicide or assasination-for every Roman male. No hiding behind pragmatism allowed. C. Man is in charge. Fact is, women and slaves only borrowed from the man's soul as they did not have one of their own. D. Being a COMPETENT and cold-blooded jerk can be very effective.

Violence in schools is a cyclical problem. On a lot of these problems, we are on the upswing. Generation X came along, saw what a mess the Boomers made of things, and resolved to try not to be so stupid. Of course, the rest of society NOT giving Xers their blessing for whatever sort of lifestyle experiments the clueless wanted to try on, also helped.


I may get back to this later, but gotta jet.
9.15.2005 9:44am
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Michael Barone has an interesting article about the political punditry of Adam Smith that about covers this topic:

Last night I was reading (actually, rereading) Gertrude Himmelfarb's luminous The Roads to Modernity: The British, French, and American Enlightenments, and came across this quotation from Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, published in 1776.

"In every civilized society, in every society where the distinction of ranks has once been completely established, there have always been two different schemes or systems of morality current at the same time, of which the one may be called the strict or austere; the other the liberal, or if you will, the loose system. The former is generally admired and revered by the common people; the latter is commonly more esteemed and adopted by what are called people of fashion."

In crystal clear prose and with her characteristic deftness, Himmelfarb shows us Smith's argument.

"The 'liberal' or 'loose' system, favored by 'people of fashion,' was prone to 'vices of levity'—'luxury, wanton and even disorderly mirth, the pursuit of pleasure to some degree of intemperance, the breach of chastity . . . ' The 'strict or austere' system, generally adhered to by 'the common people,' regarded such vices, for themselves at any rate, with 'the utmost abhorrence and detestation,' because they knew—or at least 'the wiser and better sort' of them knew—that these vices were almost always ruinous to them; a single week's dissipation could undo a poor workman forever. This is why, Smith explained, religious sects arose and flourished among the common people, for they preached the system of morality conducive to the welfare of the poor."
So there you have it. Religion exists for the purpose of maintaining a morality that is conducive to the welfare of the poor. I suppose that as America has become more wealthy, less and less of its citizens have need of religion, morality, or the welfare of the poor. It really isn't surprising that some would see the decline of the importance of religion in our society as a bad thing. In fact, they - out of love for America - might warn that such a turn away from basic morality is a prelude to decline.

As for venerating old Rome, I have never interpreted the citation of the decline of Rome as an endorsement of Rome. Rather, since its decline in power was immediately preceeded by its decline in public morality, conservatives see it as a cautionary tale. To wit: Liberals and libertarians suppose that private immorality poses no risk to the public. Conservatives believe the morality is the backbone which supports society.

So to whose camp do you belong: The beautiful or the dutiful?
9.15.2005 9:56am
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
9.15.2005 9:57am
Buddy (mail) (www):
Dean I know you are an Athiest, but let me make an attempt to explain how I think this line of reasoning came about.

I think the whole idea that America is 'under God's wing' so to speak is an American corruption of proper biblical theology. A lot of the American Church has projected 'Israel' onto America somehow. America has become 'transliterated' into the Israel which ‘God protected in the wilderness’, so to speak, and I think that’s probably derivative of some bad theology on the part of a lot of (mostly southern Baptist I think, although I see that crap creeping up in a lot of different places) American churches.

This segment of Protestantism was founded in the Hell-Fire, and Brimstone ‘revivalists’ of the early 1900s, which was really a throwback to radical forms of Puritanism in the 1700s, really, with some additional logical fallacies, which I won't go into here. In short, they are those who would either force Christianity on people (the puritans), or scare them into it (revivalists) 'for their own good'. A major corruption of many of the theological backings of most of the American church happened during the 1850-1910 period of America. Its zenith was seen during Prohibition, and we’ve been fighting that crap ever sense.

Frankly it doesn't seem logical to you Dean, well because its not logical and it’s not 'proper' to me because it’s not founded in good, orthodox, church tradition (and by orthodox I'm not necessarily referring to Greek Orthodox). It is the 'Church' proper that should be recognized as the adopted 'Israel' but somehow certain segments of Christianity that have wrongly projected that on America as a whole.

It's wholly this unsound theology that is responsible, along with some extremely bad logic on the part of a lot of church leaders (not to mention an attitude which is wholly disrespectful to the European Church). I think it’s somewhat representative (and I say this hesitantly) of the so called 'elitist' nature of America. I used to scoff at the idea but I think it’s true that we Americans do presume, to some extent, that we are better than everyone, and it’s very evident in the American 'Church' in naming themselves the ‘chosen people’. Frankly its rather arrogant and un-Christ like.

Should Christians try to 'influence' their culture? Sure. Force feed their views on a culture? Absolutely not. Christ came not to be the 'sword' but to be the 'prince of peace.' In short, the American version of ‘Church’ is fairly broken, and full of bad teaching.
9.15.2005 10:01am
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Extremely interesting. Too many things here.

Dean's World: Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Dean has certainly lived up to that. As I said in another thread, the fact that he takes on the Lord Pork Porks, etc., does not make him a conservative. Most of his commenters here are or tend to be conservative or to the Right, e.g., Kevin D., Mark Noonan, Scott Harris, Arnold Harris. And the Queen is conservative. And I'm increasingly conservative, reactionary, counter-revolutionary, far to the Right on many or most spectra. But that doesn't make Dean conservative.

I'll say another thing about Dean that I've always noticed: Whatever else Dean is, he is a true patriot. He loves his country, the United States of America. Every day he has some good words to say for our brave soldiers. And he won't hesitate to say what he thinks of anybody such as Lord Pork Pork who denigrates our soldiers and the freedom they are laying their lives on the line for.

And I agree with him. If you don't love the country you're living in, if you're not willing to be loyal to that country, her Flag, and her soldiers, particularly in time of War, why then find a better country and move there. Love it or leave it. Put your heart in or get your --- out, to put it more harshly.

I have criticized some aspects of America, e.g., the tragic fact that, from the outset, we had to become a Republic instead of a Monarchy. But at least we did not chop off the heads of our King and our Queen, as did the French (or the English under Cromwell). If there is any nation that has reaped Divine punishment for such a deed, it must be the French. The corruption of the best is the worst. Alas....

As to why conservatives have traditionally admired ancient Rome, the Republic and/or the Empire does, at first glance, seem something of an anomaly, seeing as how it was the Romans, not the Jews, who crucified their Savior (most conservatives are Christians). But I can think of three reasons:

1) It was Rome that defeated Carthage. Rome vs. Carthage stands in for the more ancient and continuing conflict of West vs. East, going back at least to the Persian Wars. Carthage was also an outpost of that civilization known to the Greeks as the Phoenicians and to the Hebrews as the Canaanites. The nature of their Polytheism, centering on the sacrifice of their own first-born infants to Moloch, was well known. G. K. Chesterton devoted a chapter in his The Everlasting Man, "The War of the Gods Against the Demons", to this final struggle between the two Polytheisms, the Roman against the Carthaginian. I, too, root for the Romans in this conflict. As did Dr. Max Rafferty in his Suffer, Little Children (1963) (against progressive education).

We of the West today take a kindlier view of the Roman-Greek Polytheism, as art-inspiring fantasy at least (e.g., see the Renaissance), than the Hebrews took of the Canaanite Polytheism, and it is no wonder. It is no wonder that, in the face of the abominable Moloch, the Prophets of the Old Testament held so strongly to their own more righteous Yahweh.

It is interesting that Chesterton's adversary on the secularist-progressivist Left, H. G. Wells, sided with the Carthaginians, as did Freud.

2) It was mainly through the Romans that we of Northern Europe received the Classical, Greek, heritage which, along with the Jewish, the Christian (now split into Catholic and Protestant), and the indigineous Northern European (Celtic, Gothic, Norse) elements, makes up our Western high culture. The Greeks originated the art, literature, philosophy, and historiography of the Classical culture, which the Romans then conserved and transmitted to us. It is no accident that most of us, from childhood, are more familiar with the Roman Gods and Goddesses than with their Greek counterparts (e.g., Mars and Venus rather than Ares and Aphrodite). Latin is the historic language of the Catholic church, whose seat is still in Rome. It was the language of every educated man throughout much of our history.

3) Rome stands for law and order, authority. The Romans extended, by force, their code of laws to the Mediterranean world, from Judea to Gaul and Britain, and much of our law, and our legal terminology (including, I have found, the names of many legal-oriented blogs) to this day derives from the Romans. References to political authority in the New Testament are necessarily to that of the Romans, and these tend to command obedience, e.g., Christ's command to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". When the Roman Emperor Constantine himself became a Christian, that made his authority all the more authoritative among Christians.

And, then, when the Christians were themselves in charge of the Roman Empire, they owed her more than the obedience of good slaves. They had to actively side with her against the barbarians. They had to become warriors for Rome. They became loyal to Rome, and they transmitted that loyalty, along with their theology, to the Northern barbarians whom they spent the next several hundred years converting.

I must mention again, as I often have in the past, that many or most of today's conservatives would have been the last to convert, would have been those who held most tenaciously, fiercely, dogmatically to their old Gods and Goddesses. But, when they did finally convert, they became the deepest and fiercest Christians, the Christians of the Crusades. As I have often remarked, the word "Pagan" or "Heathen" is the exact equivalent of what we today call a "redneck" or "Red Stater", i.e., rural, tradition-minded, God-Family-Country folk, who today would never think of calling themselves "Pagans", but are instead the most fundamental Protestants, the most orthodox Catholics.
9.15.2005 10:22am
Derek:
Dean wrote:


Single motherhood is viewed as either an unfortunate situation or is outright frowned on by most of society and is on the decline.


I hate to nitpick, but not really.

The proportion of births to single-mothers was 11 percent in 1970. In 2002, it was roughtly 33 percent. The rate of births to single mothers is not "on the decline." It's slowly going up. However, the rate among teenaged girls is, in fact declining.

As to the view that most of society frowns on it, I think this statement is out-of-date. "Single motherhood" is increasingly not seen as an unfortunate situation, and is actively pursued with increasing frequency by professional women in their mid-30s are conceiving children through donors.

The other side of this coin is that there has likewise been an increase in the number of births to cohabiting couples, in which the woman is defined for "recording purposes" as single even though she has a partner living with her. In fact, 82 percent of births outside of marriage between 1998 and 2000 were to women who were either cohabiting or in a romantic relationship, but not married.
9.15.2005 10:31am
Dean Esmay:
Derek: I'll have to be pedantic and ask for a source on your claim on single motherhood. And I'm willing to make a wager: the 33% figure for "single motherhood" will include a huge number of women who live with the father of their child but aren't married to him.

Given that at one time in society that that was all it took to be considered "married," I'm not sure that much has changed.
9.15.2005 10:37am
Buddy (mail) (www):
US Census Bureau puts the figures at 3 million in 1970, vs 10 million in in 2003. I didn't take the time to analyze the data, but that pdf has the full breakdown.
9.15.2005 10:49am
Buddy (mail) (www):
2003
Two parent 68%
Single Mother 26%
Single Father 5.8%

1970
Two parent 88.8%
Single Mother 9.9%
Single Father 1.1%

From the above PDF
9.15.2005 10:55am
Elizabeth Reid:
Just as another random datapoint, I recently re-read the 'Little House On the Prairie' books by Laura Ingalls Wilder. Because of the TV show I think many people remember this series as a paen to the glories of the American frontier life. In a sense, they are, but I think it's worth mentioning one of the more memorable stories from the account of Almanzo's childhood. In it, a gang of teenage boys have been terrorizing the schoolhouse, beating the last teacher (an adult male) so badly that he had to be hospitalized. Almanzo is very worried about the new teacher, who is slightly built and doesn't look as though he can fight off this gang of brutal bullies, and the code of the times dictates that the teacher can't ask for help or risk losing all credibility in the school and the community. Fortunately, this man turns out to be pretty smart. He borrows a bullwhip from Almanzo's Pa and is able to drive the teenagers off with it, maintaining control of the school.

Granted, that's not 50 years ago, it's more like 125, but it sure wasn't inconceivable that violence would occur in a school; in fact, this violence was semi-tolerated as shown by the fact that the community didn't join together to thwart it, they left it to the teacher to handle. And this was one of those sweet little one-room schoolhouses, girls in sunbonnets and all that.
9.15.2005 11:06am
Buddy (mail) (www):
Er. I totally borked that up. Let me try again


2003
Two Parent: 26445 68.07%
Single Mom: 10142 26.11%
Single Dad: 2260 5.82%

1990
Two Parent: 24921 71.88%
Single Mom: 8398 24.22%
Single Dad: 1351 3.90%

1980
Two Parent 25231 78.48%
Single Mom 6230 19.38%
Single Dad 690 2.15%

1970
Two Parent 25823 87.16%
Single Mom 3410 11.51%
Single Dad 393 1.33%


I realize these are 'household' numbers not births.
9.15.2005 11:09am
Buddy (mail) (www):
Elizabeth

I think the paens for the 'Good Old Times' really neglect to remember/understand how hard those times really were. 1800s frontier life was brutal and VERY difficult. You didn't walk down to the store to buy prepackaged cheese and deli ham. You made them yourself.

You didn't hire someone (generally) to build your house, You hewed the logs down and built it with your own hands (sometimes with the help of the community). And you didn't have gas powered chainsaws and electric saws to do it.

That's not to say the communities weren't more helpful to one another, heck they had to be to survive. But to glamorize the brutal frontier life of early america is to ignore the wave of death, hardship, and brutality that paved it's path.
9.15.2005 11:17am
Ken Hall (www):
Scott Harris: "To wit: Liberals and libertarians suppose that private immorality poses no risk to the public. Conservatives believe the morality is the backbone which supports society.

"So to whose camp do you belong: The beautiful or the dutiful?"

That's a fine crystallization of the question, and it's something I've been thinking about myself, as I've corresponded with a social-conservative law professor who was the only defender of property rights on an eminent-domain panel discussion I recently attended at Cleveland State University.

Okay, I'm a Roman Catholic and a libertarian, which I suppose puts me firmly in the camp of Lord Acton. Yet I have a little sympathy for the social-conservative view, in that I believe it would be much better if private immorality actually were private, rather than deliberately and provocatively public (as is too often the case today).

Remember, the end of the road may well be civil war. Submitting to tyranny (the prescriptions of the authoritarian left and right) is too high a price to pay to avoid it, but a good stiff dose of public decorum is not. Probably an unrealistic formula, but we keep hope alive.

I may expand on this back at Oldsmoblogger; I hope you don't mind my citing you, Scott.
9.15.2005 11:33am
Elizabeth Reid:
Buddy,

That's why re-reading the books was a real eye-opener. On the plus side you have fiddle gatherings in the woods, and homemade bread, and evenings around the stove, and all the things we think of when we think of the good old days. On the other hand, they all get malaria, her sister Mary goes blind, her Pa is nearly lost in a blizzard, the crops are eaten by grasshoppers, and one winter the snows pile up and they all come really close to starving and/or freezing to death. Even during the 'good' times, one can see even from Laura's perspective as a child how much work Pa and Ma do to keep the family fed and safe. At sixteen, Laura herself is employed at a job she hates to help support her family.

In Wilder's account of 'The Long Winter' of 1880-1881, it's sort of funny to read about their reactions and compare them to modern ones. When it finally becomes clear that the train carrying supplies can't get through, Ma has a reaction not unlike we soft modern folks might have - "What do you *mean* the train can't get through! It's the trainmaster's *job* to get the train through!" Now, granted, then they buck up and eat nothing but wheat for three months, but her initial reaction is just like ours might be - what do you mean, civilization might let me down?!? Once the long winter is finally over, Pa sagely observes that once people have modern conveniences like train deliveries, they get too dependent on them and can't cope on their own.
9.15.2005 11:38am
Dean Esmay:
Buddy, excellent refernence to data. But let's answer the more penetrating questions: of the "two parent" households in 1970, how many of them were married couples where the guy married her to "save her honor" but were not truly the father of the child (or most of the children)

And, of the "single mother" households today, how many of those are households where the father lives in the home but is not married to the mother, and how many of them are older children whose parents divorced when they were 10-18 years old?

Those questions yield very different answers I'd wager.
9.15.2005 11:39am
Eric R. Ashley (mail) (www):
Elizabeth,
You gave life to my point that school violence is cyclical. Thanks.
9.15.2005 11:42am
Buddy (mail) (www):
Dean: thats a good question. I suspect the data would be very revealing actually, and not in the way which the far right wing would like.

Frankly, especially in the south, 'shotgun weddings' were, ahem, just that -- 'marry the girl or I'll blow you apart', and they were not all too uncommon.

Frankly I've never understood a father who would bind his daughter to some asshole who didn't have enough honor to want to marry/provide for the woman he knocked up, but such is that.

I honestly, as a Christian, don't understand the 'speck out of my brothers eye' mentality either. Most of the time those guys tryin to force their views down other people's throats have huge blinders on themselves.

Maybe we should take the far left, put them in montana with the far right (no offense to any montana residents, its just the first big state that came to mind, plus the weather there sucks generally), build a huge concrete box around it and let them go at it in a 'cage match'

The nation as a whole would be better off with neither side, I'd guess.
9.15.2005 11:46am
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Ken,

I would suggest that public display of private morality followed the grotesque public display of private immorality. In other words, it was a backlash against the very public flaunting of private morality, and the very public taunting of those who held to high private moral standards.

What can you say to someone who thinks that acceptable political protest includes public nudity? What can you say to someone who thinks "sex on the beach" should be acceptable public behavior? What do you say to a entertainment culture that glamorizes infidelity and alternative lifestyles?

The public airing of private morality standards is a reaction to the very public and persistent attack on those standards. Surely, insisting on standards under which we all fail from time to time may be unseemly, even hypocritical. But how else do you respond to the perverse? Should we surrender our entire society to sexual deviancy in order to sustain the idea that morality is a private matter? If morality is private, should not also immorality be private?
9.15.2005 11:51am
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Dean wrote:
"This is my problem with conservatives: they romanticize the past in order to make the present seem awful."

And, conversely, my problem with liberals and progressives is that they denigrate the past in order to make the present seem acceptable.

Whatever there is in the present that is worthy of romanticizing (i.e., of valuing) is either very near and dear (hearth and home) or else very far away (our valiant soldiers fighting and dying in the fields of battle). There is nothing to romanticize, to value, in the modern degeneration of Western culture: the studied ugliness of today's young punks with their tattoos, piercings, and bizarre hairstyles (all that even worse than the hippies of my own youth), the noise that is called "music", the deliberately ugly and blasphemous "art" (subsidized by the federal government), the steady corruption of the English language, the contempt for all that our ancestors have built up over the millennia.

True that our ancestors were adulterous and promiscuous in all past ages. But they didn't make an ideology of it, denigrating the value of sex (the Naturalist philosophy) in order to justify their behavior, nor did they teach it to their children in tax-supported schools.

I disagree with LaShawn Barber and many others generally on my side of a (1-dimensional) spectrum (i.e., the Right) regarding the question of homosexual marriage. As you probably know by now, I am for homosexual marriage. But I disagree with many of the arguments put forth for it even more. G. K. Chesterton once remarked that there's nothing worse than a bad argument for something good. Ayn Rand wrote: "A half-battle is worse than none: it hastens the victory of your enemies." That is absolutely true.

I'm in the same position with regard to homosexual marriage and various liberal or progressivist arguments that are made for it that she was with regard to capitalism and various conservative arguments that were and are made for it. One argument often made (which a commenter made in response to Ms. Barber) is that "homosexuals aren't destroying marriage, heterosexuals are doing that on their own." That is partly true, but:

1) Neither homosexual nor heterosexual Catholics can be blamed for the present shipwreck as they have uncompromisingly stood against divorce since Chesterton's day and long before, and

2) Why try to board a sinking ship? Why try to get married if you believe that marriage is inevitably doomed? (I must note that belief in inevitable doom is as much a fallacy as belief in inevitable progress.)

Homosexuals should be in the forefront of the fight against divorce and adultery. If they want to marry in the real, not merely legal, sense, then they should be the first to uphold marriage as a vow of eternal fidelity, of nothing less than total commitment. They should not be "progressives" but conservatives, reactionaries, upholding the holiness of the marriage bond and opposing all that weakens it.

That is where I stand.
9.15.2005 11:53am
Buddy (mail) (www):
Elizabeth:

Yea, and I guess the sad thing is, we could (and around here, actually DO) still have those 'fiddle gatherings' homemade bread, and family times, and not have to experience the hardships of the past, BUT WE CHOOSE NOT TO.

We don't have to go back to the hardships of early america to be ameciable toward one another, its a personal choice. We just (well I don't but some do) choose to live a rat race life full of crap that really doesn't matter instead of taking care of our own communities, homes, and families.
9.15.2005 11:56am
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Dean,

You correctly point out that immoral behaviour has always been with us. But you fail to grasp the difference between the existence of immorality in society and the public acceptance of immorality as the norm.

And as for condemning both bastardy and abortion, you suggest that conservatives contradict themselves - that the price of reducing abortion is accepting bastardy.

We should refrain from condemning the immorality of conceiving children out of wedlock else we drive women to kill their unborn babies? That is similar to telling a battered woman that she should remain with her husband else she drive him to murder.

You suggest we turn a blind eye to immorality lest our condemnation drive some to even more evil. But the reality is that with the escape hatch of abortion, ever more women eschew the tradition path of marriage and ever more babies are conceived and then aborted.

The "root cause" of abortion is unwanted pregnancy. And the "root cause" of unwanted pregnancy is irresponsible sexual behaviour. Should we not condemn that?
9.15.2005 12:04pm
Derek:
Dean, be pedantic. I don't mind.

If you'll notice, I already noted that 82% of children born to "single moms" between 1998 and 2000 were born to cohabiting women or women in a non-cohabiting romantic relationship. So your "wager" sounds more like insider trading. (heh.)

Source: McLanahan, S., Garfinkel, I. Reichman, N. Teitler, J. Carlson, M. &Audigier, C.N. (2003). The Fragile Families and Child Wellbeing Study: Baseline National Report: Revised.


As for the sources of the rates of "single-motherhood":

Terry-Humen, E., Manlove, J. &Moore, K.A. (2001). Births Outside of Marriage: Perception vs. Reality. Washington, DC: Child Trends.

Martin, J.A., Hamilton, B.E., Sutton, P.D., Ventura, S.J., Menacker, F. &Munson, M.L. (2003). Nonmarital Childbearin in the United States, 1940-1999. Hyattsville, MD: National Center for Health Statistics.


Other sources, including press releases from the Census Bureau, show that the rate of single motherhood rose 3-fold from 1970 to 1995 and then leveled off.

As for your second point....

Certainly, there was a time when simply moving in together and having a child was enough to be considerred married. Couples often did this until the circuit preacher made the rounds and could marry them officially. Even if they never saw the preacher, it was rare for these relationships to split up over "irreconcilable differences".

The thing is, "modern" cohabiting couples aren't forming common-law marriages. Cohabiting couples dissolve their relationships at a rate faster than marriages in the United States. Cohabiting men are more likely to be "father figures" to children who are not their own. This is hardly the same as "at one time in society."

Sources:

Bumpass, L.L. &Sweet, J.A. (1989). National estimates of cohabitation.Demography, 26, 215-225.

Bumpass, L.L. &Lu, H.H. (2000). Trends in cohabitation and implications for children's family contexts in the United States. Population Studies, 45, 29-41.

Hofferth, S. L., Stueve, J.L., Pleck, J., Bianchi, S., &Sayer, L. (2002) The demography of fathers: What fathers do. In C.S. Tamis-LeMonda and n. Cabrera (Eds.), Handbook of Father Involvement: Multidisciplinary Perspectives. Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.



It's never good to ask a graduate student for references. We've got 'em by the truckload - especially in our areas of study.
9.15.2005 12:05pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Scott:

Condeming that is ok, IMO, but if those that are the ones doing the comdemning would start in their own back yard, focus on their own families and communities, and quit worrying about the behavior of some dude in San Francisco,, I think this nation would be a much better place.

Abortion, however, is in my eyes a great moral wrong, and I think history will note that.
9.15.2005 12:14pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Buddy,

The problem is that with our Federal court system, San Francisco has become our backyard. If we could ignore San Francisco and let it become Soddam and Gommorah on the Bay, that would be one thing. But some federal judge is going to say that since San Francisco allows it, we all must allow it. That it the tragedy. That is the threat.
9.15.2005 12:18pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Scott:

And I would posit that because the far right has tried to use the Federal Government to legislate morality for decades, that it is finally coming around to bite them on the butt (and that coming from one who would generally consider himself pretty conservative).

It is a threat of their own making. How do we fix it? Get the Fed out of everybodies business to begin with. Is it gonna happen? One can only hope.
9.15.2005 12:24pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
That is why using the Federal Court system to enforce a conservative version of morality is not the answer. The answer is to reverse many of the decisions of the past 40 years, and then allow each local jurisdiction to determine its course via the plebiscite.
9.15.2005 12:29pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Buddy,

The other problem is that Power is very seductive. Having seized control of our system in the 50's and 60's, how can we be assured that the judges and lawyers will release the power they have so assiduously amassed? That is a real dilemma.
9.15.2005 12:31pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Buddy wrote:
"I think the paens for the 'Good Old Times' really neglect to remember/understand how hard those times really were. 1800s frontier life was brutal and VERY difficult. You didn't walk down to the store to buy prepackaged cheese and deli ham. You made them yourself."

That's hardly worthy of even calling a straw-man argument. No conservative has ever praised "The Good Old Times" because they were easy, but presicely because they were hard, and therefore required a certain degree of hardness, of character, to deal with the hardships they faced. I would not have liked to have lived in ancienr Egypt, Greece, or China without moden medicine, modern plumbing, electricity, etc. But the very fact that men and women -- entirely without those very things which we today take for granted as the air we breathe -- created such high cultures is precisely why I admire them.

The question is not: Are we (materially) better off than our ancestors? The question is: Are we (morally, spiritually) better than our ancestors? And to that, I answer emphatically: No.

Progressives love to sneer at "The Good Old Times". But they never, ever specify exactly which "Good Old Times" they mean. Any time before they were born? "History begins with me"? Any time before this decade? Any time before the latest "sit-com" appears on TV? or the latest "hit song"? the latest fad?
9.15.2005 12:31pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Steven,

I confess most of the time, I struggle to understand your perspective. Nevertheless, your question is succinct.

The question is not: Are we (materially) better off than our ancestors? The question is: Are we (morally, spiritually) better than our ancestors?
Well put.
9.15.2005 12:34pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Scott: agree 100%.

The problem I see it is that people need to change their dependance on government and what they 'think' government 'owes' them. People are so used to the Fed being the 'end all be all' but I dont believe thats not how it was meant to be. The fed, as I see it, was supposed to be subservient to the states, doing those things which the states could not do in their individual means, and not lording over the states via 'federal funding for highways forcing seat belt laws' and the like. We need to quit electing leeches, and start electing real leaders. We the People need to take care of ourselves, and quit depending on government to do it for us.

Another means would be to get judges on the bench who are true to real constitutional interpretation instead of constitutional 'liquidity', and not the type of 'conservative' judges who want to rule by the same errors of the past couple decades.

The constitution meant what it said then, and its meaning hasn't changed, but too many judges don't want to live by that rule.
9.15.2005 12:37pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
I believe that abortion (legalized mass murder, in my opinion) will go down in history as an abomination just as we now regard slavery.
9.15.2005 12:43pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Scott Harris:

Thank you!
9.15.2005 12:44pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Scott Harris:

I must add that I always enjoy reading your excellently reasoned analyses even when I disagree at times on particular points.
9.15.2005 12:46pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
By the way, this past week a friend of mine had a co-worker murdered by her extranged husband. He was angry because she was working two full-time jobs and (in his view) neglecting their 14-year old son. I suppose if she had stayed with her husband, she might still be alive.
9.15.2005 12:54pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Steven wrote:
"That's hardly worthy of even calling a straw-man argument. No conservative has ever praised "The Good Old Times" because they were easy, but precisely because they were hard, and therefore required a certain degree of hardness, of character, to deal with the hardships they faced."

I'm not sure you get my point, and I think you over generalize when you say 'No conservative' because I am not sure I've ever heard someone argue that they want to return to the days of hand washed clothes and ox-plowed fields so that we can re-experience the 'good old times' again through the steeling of our souls that such hardness brings.

The point I was making is that there is no reason we can't return to the good will of the 'Good Old Times' in this day and age, in this time of plenty. It's just that we as a nation are so over focused on materialism that we choose not to. Hardship doesn’t make those times ‘more good’, it just makes the good times more memorable, I think. We can make ‘good times’ now, in the present, if we choose to do so.

I also think you do also overlook the great evils that were done in the 'good old times' too. From the trail of tears, to the institution of slavery, to the sweatshops of industry, we have grave examples of where the 'good old times' were not really so good, at least to large segments of the population. Have we but traded one evil for another? Are we any less barbarous? Any more? Or do we just ignore the evils done in the good old times to try and make ourselves feel slighter than our ancestors?

We deify a person like Washington, who was a slave owner, and glorify Franklin, who was a womanizer. Yes these were great men. But they were not gods. Neither were those men who forged the west. Neither were any of our forefathers. They had flaws just like we do. Sometimes they played fiddle in the town square and remembered the times of their forefathers and tried to honor them as best they could. Sometimes they had to meet evil, violent with violence in order to survive. Sometimes they dishonored themselves, and wiped out or relocated whole communities in order to take their land (C.f. Andrew Jackson and the Cherokee). That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t honor them for the good they did; we just shouldn’t put them up on a pedestal to worship as one would God.

I think there is a segment of society that has always been violent. They are wolves which set out to descend upon people that they might devour them with their lusts for power satiating their own desires. It's just in this day and age it's become easier to see transmitted across the globe in seconds (plus we glamorize it a lot, which is unfortunate)

I'm on your side Steven, I hate the way the country is, but I often wonder if it isn't just a matter of perception that things were 'less evil' then than they are now.

The more things change, the more they stay the same?
9.15.2005 1:07pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Buddy,

I'm part Cherokee (and part Choctaw), so take that into account when I say this.

Without Andrew Jackson, I probably would not be here. The Indian tribes that Jackson did not move were mostly wiped out. Jackson himself adopted a Cherokee son, and even killed whites in defense of Indians. But when it became apparent to him that there was no other way to save the Indians except by removal, he supported the policy of removal.

He disdained the ruling of the Supreme Court because as a westerner, he had seen first hand the willingness of whites to trample on the property rights of Indians. In other words, the law was no protection. Maybe it should have been, but it wasn't.

Jackson is unfairly slandered today for doing precisely what he thought needed to be done to SAVE the Indians from annihilation. They don't teach that in schools. And the descendants of those Indians (including my grandparents) are loathe to admit it since they prefer to highlight the injustice of having their property seized. But the cold hard historical fact is that without Jackson, there would be fewer Cherokee alive today.
9.15.2005 1:23pm
Ken Hall (www):
Scott--

Actually, I think we agree. The question is over prescriptions, and I take from your later posts...

"That is why using the Federal Court system to enforce a conservative version of morality is not the answer. The answer is to reverse many of the decisions of the past 40 years, and then allow each local jurisdiction to determine its course via the plebiscite."

...that we are in general agreement there too. I am all in favor of using moral suasion (up to and including shame, shunning, etc.), if that's the term, to reimpose a public morality that does not corrode domestic tranquility.
9.15.2005 1:26pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Steven: I'm part Cherokee and Part Seminole, too, so I understand where you are coming from, and I wasn't meaning to misrepresent the facts of the matter, however Jackson was president at the time and he could have (maybe, debatable) done something other than what he did, but the point is, this is an example of the 'good old times' not being so good, from the president on down to the first white settler up here in these mountains of North Carolina.

GRAVE injustices were done to alot of different classes of people and the government of this country, and from the Courts to the Local Governments, we were unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Relocation became somewhat unavoidable because the situation had been ignored for so long and you had settlers of the frontier stealing or cheating land from the original inhabitants, and it was morally acceptable because they were 'heathens.'
9.15.2005 1:33pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
oops that should have been scott, sorry
9.15.2005 1:34pm
Scott Harris (mail) (www):
Buddy,

I understand your point. I just wanted to set the record straight on Jackson, who ironically is also related to my ancestry by marriage.
9.15.2005 1:38pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
Scott: that’s cool, and interesting. Genealogy rocks.
9.15.2005 1:41pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Buddy:
"I'm not sure you get my point, and I think you over generalize when you say 'No conservative' because I am not sure I've ever heard someone argue that they want to return to the days of hand washed clothes and ox-plowed fields so that we can re-experience the 'good old times' again through the steeling of our souls that such hardness brings."

To the contrary, I've fairly often heard conservatives praise the moral fiber of the Great Depression era (even if they opposed the New Deal), often on the grounds that "adversity builds character", and they have often praised the hardihood of America's pioneers in the 19th century (during which time these same pioneers were contrasting their own rugged virtue to the corrupt softness of the decadent Old World). The old grand-dad who sits on his porch in his rocking-chair and boasts to his granchildren that: "You kids have it so easy today, back in my day we had to walk 20 miles hip-deep in the snow to get to school." has long been a stock figure of many a comic strip.

I've never heard a conservative say: "Sitting on the sofa watching TV is such hard work. I'd rather just take it easy and go out and chop wood and hunt bears and carry water up a hill."

Anyway, you missed my point that "The Good Old Times" is never defined by those who love to ridicule the past in the name of making their own generation feel so superior to any that has ever come before. To say: "How can you admire Dante? -- he didn't even have a microwave!" is just beneath contempt.

I, for one, do not idealize the 19th century, which was the century which gave birth to all the abominable ideologies of the 20th century, that century of death camps, gulags, and killing fields. I believe that the 20th century will go down as the darkest age in history -- and that largely because of the technological advances that were put to such uses.
9.15.2005 4:45pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
To clarify what I wrote:
"I've never heard a conservative say: "Sitting on the sofa watching TV is such hard work. I'd rather just take it easy and go out and chop wood and hunt bears and carry water up a hill."

And I don't necessarily advocate going back to that either, and neither actually do most conservatives (though some environmentalists do). What technology people had or didn't have in the past is just totally irrelevant to any discussion of their moral character, their religious or philosophical beliefs, or their tastes in art, music, or literature. And it is those issues that we are debating about. When a conservative points out that contemporary literature is inferior to the works of Shakespeare (an understatement) or that contemporary "music" is inferior to Beethoven (another vast understatement) -- to say "Yeah, but that dude didn't have cable TV!" is simply utterly pointless and not worthy of a reply.
9.15.2005 5:00pm
Buddy (mail) (www):
"To the contrary, I've fairly often heard conservatives praise the moral fiber of the Great Depression era (even if they opposed the New Deal), often on the grounds that "adversity builds character", and they have often praised the hardihood of America's pioneers in the 19th century (during which time these same pioneers were contrasting their own rugged virtue to the corrupt softness of the decadent Old World)."

Sure, praising and wanting to relive those times (as you clarified) are two different things however. I'm not so sure that it was the necessarily the hard times that made the moral fiber of those folks. Rather more likely it was proper and responsible parenting that taught them moral fiber in the first place. That, I believe, is where our issue of the day is: Lack of proper parentage, due to the 'rat race' life most Americans tend to be desirous to live. We’ve on the whole placed material possessions over our own families.

I don't think technology has anything to do with it either. Technology is amoral. It has no moral directive one way or another. A hammer can't be evil, nor can guns, nor atom bombs. It's how we use or abuse those technologies that decide whether our actions are moral or immoral.

I'm certainly not ridiculing the past, I admire history and past culture, and its one of the reasons I've relocated where I have, because the Mountains of Western North Carolina are rich in it. If it was implied, I certainly didn't mean to.

I think a return to some of the ideals of old would be a great balm for this country. However, I don't hold the average of those men of the past up to be any better or worse than the average of the men of this generation. We are all just men, after all. The media just pastes all the bad ones on TV nightly because they make money off of 'em.
9.15.2005 6:17pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Buddy:

OK. We agree. Sorry I was so harsh to you. My only possible excuse or mitigation is that I have heard that type of argument innumerable times before, and so I thought you were in danger of slipping into such a fallacy.

I'm glad you and Scott Harris take pride in your Cherokee, Choctaw, and Seminole ancestors. I take some pride in my own ancestors. But, as far as any of us have discovered, they seem to be all Northern European Gentiles -- which means that, during the time when the Romans were building their Empire, my ancestors were composing great mythic sagas, but they spent the rest of their time sacking villages. In other words, in 500 A.D., they were still no more civilized or cultured than any of the most primitive tribes here or in equatorial Africa. That's just the way it is. I do not believe in "the superiority of the Nordic race"! I know too way much history to believe in any such a stupid thing.

I'm glad to know that Andrew Jackson wasn't quite the blackguard I thought he was. I still hold against him his defiance of the Supreme Court, but at least he didn't corrupt the Court the way FDR did.
9.15.2005 7:18pm
Derek:
Before you hold AJ's defiance of the Supreme Court against him, you might consider reading the following:

Prucha, Francis Paul. The Great Father: The United States Government and the American Indians, volume I. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1984.

In it, it's noted that Jackson didn't have authority to enforce the ruling unless George formally acted to defy it. George simply ignored it. So AJ gets blamed for not doing something he had no legal basis to do.

Now, let's note that I'm a family science researcher by training, not a lawyer. So Prucha could be blowing smoke and I'd not have known.
9.15.2005 9:59pm
Derek:
Good grief. That's supposed to be "Georgia", not "George." For cryin' out loud! I can't even type tonight.
9.15.2005 10:00pm
Dean Esmay:
What can you say to someone who thinks that acceptable political protest includes public nudity?

Data point: early Christians typically performed baptisms in the nude--including the entire congregation as well as those conducting the ceremony.
9.15.2005 11:07pm
Dean Esmay:
Regarding the abortion question: condemnation of unwanted pregnancy creates incentive to quietly terminate the pregnancy. That's simply reality. There are ways to discourage a behavior without behaving in a way that's counterproductive.

Regarding the issue of public vs. private display of immorality: there's some truth to this, although I believe it's exaggerated. It also leaves out the fact that there are some public displays of immorality which are no longer tolerated today, such as drunk driving or public drunkenness in general, beating your children, expressing racial hatred or, for that matter, taking part in public lynchings or duels. These are all areas where we're much more moral in public today than we were just 50 or 100 years ago.

The issue of sexual morality is the area where conservatives today seem concerned--to the exclusion of the other areas where there's no longer a problem. In some areas I understand it, and in others I don't, because I think one of the obvious problems here is that we're facing a situation today we didn't have in the past, to whit: people live a lot longer, marry a lot longer, and pregnancy is (mostly) optional.

You can build a strong case that much traditional morality was based on functional behavior codes--i.e. certain types of behavior that were once wildly likely to result in very negative consequences for both individuals and families now have only minor consequences. Leaving conservatives in the position of having to say "well it's wrong because it's just wrong" rather than saying, "it's wrong because so many bad things will happen."

Take for example the issue of cohabiting couples. I noted that at one time, all it took to be considered "married" was to do that. Derek notes that today, cohabiting unmarried couples are more likely to break up than married cohabiting couples. Yes, but, you go back 100 years and if a "common law marriage" couple broke up, it would have had a devastating impact on community much greater than the impact it tends to have today. Moreover, 100 years ago people lived about 30 years shorter lives than they do now, and were a good deal poorer, and so opportunities for licentious behavior would be much reduced, and the costs for it would be much greater.

Thus we should expect the changes we're seeing now. Raising the questin for the traditionalist: how much of what's being preserved as tradition is tradition's sake, and how much of it is genuinely functional?
9.15.2005 11:19pm
sam naydee (mail):
I wonder. Since Lincoln believed the Civil War was punishment by God on America for the sin of slavery, and as much as said so in his second inaugural address, does that make him part of the "Hate-America Right"?
9.15.2005 11:52pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Dean wrote:
"Regarding the abortion question: condemnation of unwanted pregnancy creates incentive to quietly terminate the pregnancy. That's simply reality. There are ways to discourage a behavior without behaving in a way that's counterproductive."

I agree. And from what I've learned from reading and, more important, from conversations with pro-life "sidewalk counselors" (most of them women, most of them deeply religious), they do not tell pregnant women: "You filthy slut! God hates you!" Instead they tell those women: "Please don't kill your baby. God loves you and your baby.", and then they offer alternatives to abortion. Look at any Yellow Pages and you'll see "Abortion Alternatives" as one of the first things listed.

I said that abortion will go down in history like slavery. Conversely, I think that these truly compassionate conservatives will be remembered as we remember the Underground Railroad.
9.16.2005 12:51am
Eric R. Ashley (mail) (www):
SMA, the parallels between abortion and slavery are astonishingly great.

1. Stupid Supreme Court (Dred Scott/Roe v. Wade)
2. Hardliners on both sides (Anti-slavery advocates and Southern 'fire-eaters')
3. A question: Is a person (black or a fetus) a person, or are they property?
4. The Establishment would prefer to blur over the differences (The Great Compromise; 'safe, legal, and rare') and maintain the status quo.
5. The Republican Party was born out of the Whigs refusal to take a stand while the Democrats, of course, supported slavery. For a while, I wondered if this would happen again, but it looks like the R's are going to stand.
6. Violence ( John Brown; abortion clinic bombing)
7. Civil War (slavery did, and abortion may be a major factor in causing a civil war.)
8. Both sides think the other side is a bunch of wimps. This is where it gets scary...both the North and the South thought the other side would fold quickly. The Red thinks the Blues are congenitial cowards, adn the Blues think the Reds don't have a clue.
9. As Generations theory would say, both sides are led by Idealistic generations who instead of getting milder as they age, are getting more visionary. These are the type of people who don't hold back in their quest to found a new moral order.

A war between these two sides would be...absolutely devastating with casualties in the tens of millions. Imagine a 21st century Sherman deliberately burning the whole of the BosWash Corridor with some form of improved napalm.
9.16.2005 2:37am
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Eric R. Ashley:

Excellent analysis. I can only pray that it doesn't come to that pass. More and more women, including Norma McCorvey ("Jane Roe" herself), are waking up to what abortion really is. I pray that this continues. Choose Life!
9.16.2005 3:18am
Derek:
Dean wrote:

Derek notes that today, cohabiting unmarried couples are more likely to break up than married cohabiting couples. Yes, but, you go back 100 years and if a "common law marriage" couple broke up, it would have had a devastating impact on community much greater than the impact it tends to have today.

There's no "but" about it, as that was my point. Todays cohabiting couples are not "the same" as previous cohabiting couples that would have been considered common law marriages. They were a part of the community and the dissolution of their family impacted more than just their kids. They were recognized and behaved as married even without the little piece of paper that said they were.

But cohabiting couples today aren't in that position. And, unfortunately, cohabiting fathers are likely to leave the relationship shortly after the birth of their child. So to suggest that these women aren't "single mothers" because they have a man in the house ignores the research findings (so, yes, I'm talking "on average" here) that she's likely to be a single parent with no cohabiting partner in rather short order. They may not be "alone" but they're certainly not "married."
9.16.2005 9:08am
Beth (www):
After reading everyone's insightful commentary, I see pretty much everyone is on the same page.

"Good Old Times" = hard life (adversity) > character.
Current times = easy life > sloppy character.

Dutiful (working class) = adversity > character.
Beautiful = easy life > sloppy character.

(etc.)

What it comes down to is exactly what Dean said:

traditional morality was based on functional behavior codes--i.e. certain types of behavior that were once wildly likely to result in very negative consequences for both individuals and families now have only minor consequences.

And it's still the case that certain behaviors result in negative consequences, but modern conveniences alleviate the negativity. They're still negative consequences, though. For example, children born out of wedlock won't be called "bastards," but they're FAR more likely to be raised in poverty or at least a lower standard of living.

So what's the solution? Forcing adversity, shunning modern convenience? I don't think anyone would advocate that, needless to say.

I'm speaking as a concerned parent, NOT a professional, but I think a lot more emphasis could be placed on instilling the idea of "actions have consequences" on children. Maybe I'm putting it too plainly that way, but we can't turn back time--nor is that a good idea. There's always going to be a challenge to morality, whatever the standards of the day are. What to do--adapt the behaviors to combat actions that have negative consequences.

The easy way, of course, is to make law, but it's not always the smart way.

Another point: Just like there will never be "world peace," there's ALWAYS going to be an element of society that "fights the Establishment" (I really hate that term) and is amoral/violent/impolite (sociopathic?). I guess you could start spiking the drinking water with anti-psychotic or anti-depressive medication. Of course (!), I'm kidding, but it's notable that those are frequently people who are spoiled and selfish (the easy life), as with Hollyweird actors and college students railing against traditional values. Not all, but the most vocal ones, to be sure.

This is why I think the state of public education today is such a disaster. It's all about "everyone is wonderful" and nobody can ever be told they're just plain old WRONG. Schools from early education up to graduate education preach this crap in unison, and kids to young adults are raised on anything goes "morality." I could prattle on for hours about all the inappropriate crap and non-education that's introduced to kids in schools, but I think y'all know that already. This isn't to say that taking the word "God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance will create amoral children/adults, of course. Speaking for myself, though, the opposition to its removal is backlash against all the other anti-traditional values crap that is in schools already. (See also: homeschooling and private/parochial education.)

I don't think this is a problem that's going to be solved overnight (the morals issue), but I feel like I have to fight a daily battle against bad influences on my SIX year-old. I can ignore obnoxious public behavior for myself, but I can't ignore it for my daughter.

Which brings me back to La Shawn's argument. I think she's wrong, because there are plenty of moral people who aren't religious at all, even though she would call even the moral non-religious people amoral. America's not a dying civilization, and the assertion that it is because it doesn't fit her ideal makes me ill. I wouldn't call it America-hating, but I would call it utopian to an extent--that like the idiotarian left, she (and other utopians) loves the America that is in her dreams. Anything less makes America mortally flawed. Too bad for them.
9.16.2005 10:44am
Beth (www):
Damn, sorry I left such a long comment. Guess I shoulda blogged it instead. ;-)
9.16.2005 10:45am
Buddy (mail) (www):
Im not sure im biting into the 'hard life equates to good character' hamburger. There are plenty of people out there that have hard lives and still have pretty crappy character. I think it might be more accurate to say that good character allows a person to overcome 'hard times' instead of delving deeper into bad character and destroying themselves.

Good character is a result of good training, I think, not hard times. Hard times tends to reinforce good character, because the ones with bad character die off (they don't take the time to plant their crops, etc). I think what we are seeing, is that because of the 'good times' character is less important to survival as it was in past times.

I think dean has it fairly well on, really.

Good character starts at home. Teach your children well. Train them up in the way which they should go (or according to their needs or literally 'bent') and they shall not depart from it. etc. etc.
9.16.2005 4:24pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Buddy wrote:
"Im not sure im biting into the 'hard life equates to good character' hamburger."

Neither do I. I'll take a hamburger with lettuce, tomatoes, mustard, mushrooms, etc..

"There are plenty of people out there that have hard lives and still have pretty crappy character."

All too true. The dope addicts, the thugs, the whiners. Neither wealth nor poverty is any proof of virtue.

"I think it might be more accurate to say that good character allows a person to overcome 'hard times' instead of delving deeper into bad character and destroying themselves."

True.

Beth:

If you thought your comment was long, you should see some of mine. You don't have to apologize.

Beth wrote:
"After reading everyone's insightful commentary, I see pretty much everyone is on the same page.

"Good Old Times" = hard life (adversity) > character.
Current times = easy life > sloppy character.

Dutiful (working class) = adversity > character.
Beautiful = easy life > sloppy character."

I'm not sure I'm on that page. I'll say it for the third time: The phrase "Good Old Times" is never defined by the progressivists who set it up as a straw man to knock down. If they mean any "times" before the present split-second, there are an infinite number, from the Clinton era all the way back to prehistory.

And I'll say it again: Conservatives such as Richard Weaver who protest the degeneration of art, religion, philosophy, since, e.g., the end of the 14th century (when nominalism triumphed over Platonic realism) are not calling for a revival of the bubonic plague. That's just another straw man.

"Dutiful" vs. "Beautiful" sounds revoltingly Kantian to me. To the contrary, it is my highest duty to exalt Beauty (the embodiment of the Good) in every form.

I'm not criticizing any commenter here, just trying to make my own stand clear.
9.17.2005 1:51am
lindsey (mail):
"And sexually transmitted diseases are less of a problem today than when our grandparents were young."

This is patently ludicrous statement. When our grandparents were young, there was no AIDS. It's quite obvious that since the time our grandparents were young the number of people infected with a std has increased quite a bit. And to make such a statement while so many people in the Third World are dying particularly Africans is willfully ignorant.

I wanted to comment on this much earlier remark from Buddy:

"Frankly, especially in the south, 'shotgun weddings' were, ahem, just that -- 'marry the girl or I'll blow you apart', and they were not all too uncommon.

Frankly I've never understood a father who would bind his daughter to some asshole who didn't have enough honor to want to marry/provide for the woman he knocked up, but such is that."

It's not an issue of honor so much as if you give people the chance to shirk responsibility they will. Also, I wanted to explain something about the why of "shotgun weddings" and why I think bringing them back would be a good thing for society, particularly the poor. The concept of the "shotgun wedding" is not at all particular to the South, even though the popular image is. You would have found similar conduct in the North, and if you take a look around the world, it's found in many cultures. Why do they do this? Because large numbers of unmarried women with fatherless children running around, especially in a poor and unstable society, is a prescription for even more poverty and violence. If you have a family with, say, five people in it, a mother, a father, and any combination of boys and girls, what happens if one of the girls gets pregnant, but doesn't get married? let's assume that some of these kids are old enough to work to financially support the family. Well, since she's pregnant she's not going to be able to do as much work as before. This means that there will be a loss in the family's wealth. Then once the kid is born, there are more expenses to be paid because she still won't be able to do as much work as before, but she still needs to be fed and clothed as does the child. Each already stretched family gets poorer and poorer since it's obvious that won't be the first kid, and most men aren't going to want to marry a poor woman with some other man's child. Everybody gets poorer. This is why the stigma against unmarried mothers was so great.

If the fathers are required by society to do right by their children and the mother of the child, this means that they are gainfully employed trying to financially support their family. They are not running around at all hours of the night with their friends getting drunk, doing drugs and committing crime. Why? Because if they're working their butts off to support their family and then spending time with their wives and kids, they won't have much time or energy to get in trouble. If society demanded that those gangbangers who rampaged through New Orleans after the hurricane stay with their families to support and protect them, you wouldn't have these large numbers of men with time on their hands to commit crime. How much do you want to bet that they were mostly unmarried but still had children (probably by various women)? If you've ever heard the expression "idle hands are the devil's playpen", well, they are. As well, when men get married and have children, the levels of the hormone testosterone in their blood drop. Lower levels of testosterone equate to less violent and more responsible (and less impulsive) behavior in men. If you have more single men in society, you will have more violence and crime. Period. The best thing that could be done for our innercities would be to make the men marry the women they impregnate, but so long as pregnancy is a "choice" this will never happen. The "shotgun wedding" isn't the result of violent primitives or perverse morality or anything else it's been billed as. It's the result of people in a bad situation making the best of it by trying to make their society a better place to live. It's an example of not doing things that exacerbate an already bad situation. It's the harm principle of morality in action.
9.17.2005 2:21am
lindsey (mail):
"I'm almost 40 myself, and I recall reading headlines about how the American family was falling apart since the first time I picked up a newspaper more than 30 years ago.

But here's a news-flash for the dour "America sucks" conservatives: the divorce rate is down, not up. Illegitimacy is down, not up. The "free love" movement ended over 20 years ago. Single motherhood is viewed as either an unfortunate situation or is outright frowned on by most of society and is on the decline. And sexually transmitted diseases are less of a problem today than when our grandparents were young. "

Dean, did you ever ask yourself whether there's a cause and effect situation at work here? Conservatives and newspapers have been yelling about how the American family is falling apart, so more people took action to protect and strengthen their families, hence the improved situation. If these conservatives are criticizing American morals, don't you think that some of them do this because they love America and want us to be as happy and healthy as possible? There's a fine line between the Hate America Because She Sins faction and the ones who just want a better America. The ones in the former group are sparse on the ground and need to be reminded that calls for improvement should come from a place of love and affection. It's the same thing on the Left really. There's a fine line between some of the Leftist rhetoric that wants us to be a better country and the rhetoric that thinks we're nothing but "racist Indian killing slavers who should just shoot ourselves now". There are people on both sides who think we're sinners destined for hellfire. These people see no hope and don't actually believe in people and certainly don't believe in America.


Also, if the divorce rate is down, it's probably because the marriage rate is down. This reminds me of when some lefties were attempting to lord themselves over "Red States" because Red States have a higher divorce rate than Blue States, but Red States have a higher divorce rate because more people actually get married in the first place in those states.
9.17.2005 2:34am
Dean Esmay:
Lindsey: First off you need to educate yourself before spouting off about history. Syphilis was a raging deadly epidemic until the widespread availability of penicillin after World War II. Literally millions died of it in this country; Franklin Roosevelt declared it a national public health emergency and the government ran major anti-syphilis campaigns before and during World War II. You didn't know this? Well maybe you should try learning a little history before spouting off about what is "patently ludicrous." Syphilis is a nasty, horrible disease that wiped out millions.

Furthermore, we know now that the government's been lying to us for almost two decades about the threat of AIDS--it has not ever spread into the heterosexual, non-drug-using population as predicted. And we have every reason to believe the tales of it ravaging Africa are equally exagerrated. In any case, the syphilis epidemics of the 19th and early 20th century were horrendous, and killed more people than AIDS has, ESPECIALLY if you take into account how much smaller the population was 70 or 80 years ago.

As for the "cause and effect" of conservatives complaining about the dissolution of the family: I'm more inclined to think it's a matter of kids who grew up in the age of easy divorce becoming adults themselves and realizing how destructive the phenomenon is on children, and being more reluctant to do it.

But yes, conservative complaining about it probably contributed. But LaShawn goes so far as to claim that America is on the decline because of divorce and homosexuality. Sorry, but that's more than I can stomach.
9.17.2005 4:51am
Dean Esmay:
Oh, and by the way: it turns out that most people who get married stay married. The divorce rate isn't up. Yes, it's true that half of all marriages wind up in divorce, but it turns out that most of that is people who go through multiple marriages and divorces; most people are stable in their marriages.
9.17.2005 4:53am
Derek:
Personally, I blame Liz Taylor for skewing the divorce statistics.
9.17.2005 10:25am
McKiernan:
"LaShawn goes so far as to claim that America is on the decline because of divorce and homosexuality. Sorry, but that's more than I can stomach."

Yet, to her credit she also rails against the 43,000,00 babies "legally "killed by abortion since Roe v Wade.

Then, there are those that can quietly stomach that quite well. Or maybe I missed something in her post.
9.17.2005 11:55am
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):