Dean - One thing about the email you posted in your previous entry on this topic is this -
When your AA source listed the things that don't affect, or result in alcoholism, and she listed "genetics" she was wrong. I've seen it personally in my own family, and I don't doubt that you would come to the same conclusion if you think about it. The fact that AA saved your father says pretty clearly that there is likely some genetics involved with your problem as well.
My father is an alcoholic. His mother was. My brother probably is. But he has controlled his addiction. How I have no idea, considering his life, but I give him credit for that.
A former girlfriend's father was(is) an acoholic. He didn't get much out of AA and stopped going. He also managed to stop drinking. Nowadays, he occassionally has a glass of wine, but that's a rarity. And he doesn't immediately plunge back into can't-stop-myself binge drinking. Somehow, I don't think that AA agrees with his position. Works for him, though, and probably other folks as well.
May I respectfully submit that, despite your protestations, your problems with AA do stem from the "higher power" element, albeit indirectly? The two things that bug you -- "you're powerless" and "this is all that works" -- are actually both derivatives of the "higher power" element. They're really just traditional Christian doctrine (and in line with other faiths as well) adapted into a therapeutic setting. The idea that we're all susceptible to sin and can only be saved through grace (not through our own strength of will or other means) is pretty fundamental doctrine.
And so when you discount or even just minimize the "higher power" element, you've removed the underpinnings for the two propositions that really bug you. Those two propositions make sense as articles of faith; but you're examining them with reason, not faith, and you understandably find them lacking in that regard. Therefore, those propositions don't help you at all.
Someone approaching the program with a compatible faith perspective may find those propositions to be strengthening: the propositions are compatible with their faith, and they can thus draw on that faith to provide them the strength that they need.
One more time I'm sorry I was such an ass last year when this came up, I was still dealing with my own crap.
Having said that.
I WAS powerless and with the help of AA I found a power greater than myself and now I'm not powerless anymore.
That's what works for me and countless others.
However, you're right, there are a LOT of AA groups that want to keep that person powerless forever, even though the steps are specifically designed for getting power back.
One of my best sponsors told me that his job was to make damn sure I didn't need him. You don't hear that from a lot of 12 Steppers.
If something, anything else would have worked, I sure as hell wouldn't have gone to AA. If I had been introduced to AA in some of the places I've been, I would never have stuck around. Luckily, my base is in Libertarian AA vs the Facists and I don't hang much with the Facists anymore even though they're dominant in the area I currently live in.
AA's own figures show a long-term rate of success of around 5%.
Medical documentation shows that the long-term rate of success of individuals who use no program at all (AA or anything else) is.... around 5%.
Every time I write on this subject, I receive emails from people who hate AA. They fall into two categories:
1) People who have been clean and substance-free for many years WITHOUT AA, who tell me that if they'd stayed in AA they'd still be using because they hated it so much and it made them feel so bad about themselves,
2) People who are still using and in despair because they hate AA worse than they hate using and so they figure it's a choice between AA or death--and they choose death.
You would think all that would wake some people up and make them stop spouting dogma. If the program works for you, fine, but stop with the bullshit with telling anyone that this is the only thing that works.
And Timmer: so you investigated EVERY alternative before trying AA, eh? So you KNOW that's the only thing that could have helped you because you TRIED everything else: AVRT, moderation management, harm reduction, counseling, SOS, WFS/MFS, Naltexone, and everything else?
...and by the way, there are faith-based programs for substance abuse which completely reject the guilt-inducing, self-loathing-encouraging 12 steps--which emphasize power, self-worth, self-control, discipline, etc. through faith.
It's not the faith aspect I care about. I take the AA people at their word that you can understand the "higher power" to mean your friends and family, a talisman, or anything else.
That's not my problem. My problem is that this program makes me feel like garbage and makes me want to drink more. And I'm not the only one who feels that way.
If it works for you, great. Stop shoving it in my fucking face as the only answer, the only thing that works, and telling me that if I don't like it it's because there's something wrong with me. I mean, seriously, is it a treatment program or is it a fucking cult?
It's so hard, Timmer, because so many people shove it in your face when you admit that you've got a problem, and push their dogma at you.
I'm tired of being told that if I don't buy the AA line hook line and sinker that I'm "in denial" and "not really facing up to the problem." I'm tired of being at gatherings with people who know I've admitted to having a problem stare at me like I'm some kind of emotional cripple if I say, "Yeah I'll have a beer." I'm also tired of hearing that if I don't toe the party line on everything, it's proof that I'm not getting better or getting my shit together.
I could go on, but do you not get the point? The dogma of the system you've embraced is everywhere in the culture.
When your AA source listed the things that don't affect, or result in alcoholism, and she listed "genetics" she was wrong. I've seen it personally in my own family, and I don't doubt that you would come to the same conclusion if you think about it. The fact that AA saved your father says pretty clearly that there is likely some genetics involved with your problem as well.
My father is an alcoholic. His mother was. My brother probably is. But he has controlled his addiction. How I have no idea, considering his life, but I give him credit for that.
You know I wish you well on dealing with it.
May I respectfully submit that, despite your protestations, your problems with AA do stem from the "higher power" element, albeit indirectly? The two things that bug you -- "you're powerless" and "this is all that works" -- are actually both derivatives of the "higher power" element. They're really just traditional Christian doctrine (and in line with other faiths as well) adapted into a therapeutic setting. The idea that we're all susceptible to sin and can only be saved through grace (not through our own strength of will or other means) is pretty fundamental doctrine.
And so when you discount or even just minimize the "higher power" element, you've removed the underpinnings for the two propositions that really bug you. Those two propositions make sense as articles of faith; but you're examining them with reason, not faith, and you understandably find them lacking in that regard. Therefore, those propositions don't help you at all.
Someone approaching the program with a compatible faith perspective may find those propositions to be strengthening: the propositions are compatible with their faith, and they can thus draw on that faith to provide them the strength that they need.
Having said that.
I WAS powerless and with the help of AA I found a power greater than myself and now I'm not powerless anymore.
That's what works for me and countless others.
However, you're right, there are a LOT of AA groups that want to keep that person powerless forever, even though the steps are specifically designed for getting power back.
One of my best sponsors told me that his job was to make damn sure I didn't need him. You don't hear that from a lot of 12 Steppers.
If something, anything else would have worked, I sure as hell wouldn't have gone to AA. If I had been introduced to AA in some of the places I've been, I would never have stuck around. Luckily, my base is in Libertarian AA vs the Facists and I don't hang much with the Facists anymore even though they're dominant in the area I currently live in.
Medical documentation shows that the long-term rate of success of individuals who use no program at all (AA or anything else) is.... around 5%.
Every time I write on this subject, I receive emails from people who hate AA. They fall into two categories:
1) People who have been clean and substance-free for many years WITHOUT AA, who tell me that if they'd stayed in AA they'd still be using because they hated it so much and it made them feel so bad about themselves,
2) People who are still using and in despair because they hate AA worse than they hate using and so they figure it's a choice between AA or death--and they choose death.
You would think all that would wake some people up and make them stop spouting dogma. If the program works for you, fine, but stop with the bullshit with telling anyone that this is the only thing that works.
And Timmer: so you investigated EVERY alternative before trying AA, eh? So you KNOW that's the only thing that could have helped you because you TRIED everything else: AVRT, moderation management, harm reduction, counseling, SOS, WFS/MFS, Naltexone, and everything else?
It's not the faith aspect I care about. I take the AA people at their word that you can understand the "higher power" to mean your friends and family, a talisman, or anything else.
That's not my problem. My problem is that this program makes me feel like garbage and makes me want to drink more. And I'm not the only one who feels that way.
If it works for you, great. Stop shoving it in my fucking face as the only answer, the only thing that works, and telling me that if I don't like it it's because there's something wrong with me. I mean, seriously, is it a treatment program or is it a fucking cult?
If you don't like it, just don't go.
Why is that so hard?
I'm tired of being told that if I don't buy the AA line hook line and sinker that I'm "in denial" and "not really facing up to the problem." I'm tired of being at gatherings with people who know I've admitted to having a problem stare at me like I'm some kind of emotional cripple if I say, "Yeah I'll have a beer." I'm also tired of hearing that if I don't toe the party line on everything, it's proof that I'm not getting better or getting my shit together.
I could go on, but do you not get the point? The dogma of the system you've embraced is everywhere in the culture.