As Requested: A New Religion Post
Rosemary Esmay
Ted said,
"If God is all powerful then, in theory, everything that happens, happens because either He caused it or allowed it to happen. On can make the arguement that for Christanity to be true, every single atom is under God's control."
Ah, well one can make that argument but where does that leave free will? We were given free will and I'm pretty sure He is letting us use it. If not, why punish Adam and Eve? Why destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? What was up with that flood and the ark?
Thoughts?
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- As Requested: A New Religion Post
- From the Mailbag: A Biblical Question
That is, I can't imagine that argument being made except as a foil.
As for the question, it's been one of the biggest theological problems out there, so I don't expect we'll make much progress on it here. C. S. Lewis's book, The Great Divorce, is a good start to thinking about the problem.
Another good book about this would Milton's Paradise Lost.
He's raising us but we have to learn for ourselves. That's why bad things happen to good people. Nothing personal. People have to understand that doing good for each other is the best way to act. Look at Western Civ, which is pretty much Judeo-Christian history. Eastern empires on the other hand were usually brutal and repressive.
Egypt almost belongs in there. That was a pretty tolerant empire for its subjects. They were happy.
It begins in Israel and Rome.
Rome was a force for good. The people who were happy with their rule were happy. Good subjects prospered, bad subjects didn't. When the Senators and rulers became too greedy and self-serving Rome fell. They turned away from God.
The Bible is full of stories like that for the Chosen People.
The Church lasted after the fall of Rome and saved much information but it was not good. It treated the Word as a commodity to sell to gullible peasants and to use to retain power from equally greedy nobles.
The Dark Ages.
They started to end serfdom. The Protestants started to break off. The Church tried to grasp power.
The Thirty Years War.
Then, centers of learning and places with freedom like Venice and Amsterdam popped up.
The Renaissance.
Of course since man has free will he will do bad things. But it's been an upward-sloping cyclic trend.
A Jonathan Livingston Seagull sort of thing except it's generations instead of reincarnations and we go up,down and sideways.
We were heading up pretty steeply but I believe we're on a cusp.
As usual.
I believe most of that except I don't believe there is a god or that there is any outside-imposed meaning to life.
Just as I see God as a parent (only one of more), letting us learn that which is needed. He can strike at any time He wishes (Noah is but one example) but instead lets us face what comes and deal with it. No amount of human screaming 'My God is BETTER than Your's' has changed this through Millenia, and no book-thumping hypocrite will change it now.
This is where my views on abortion come from...I think every abortion that occurs is free will, but that God is quite capable of figuring out what will happen in advance...a numbers racket in a way. Just as I can give my children a choice and I pretty much know what they'll choose. I'm not psycic, but I know my children. Why would God be any different?
If there is anything outside of God's control, how can we be confident of His promises? Is He all powerful or not?
Free will - how does one define it? Is free will doing what we feel most compelled to do at any point in time? I eat because I'm hungry. I don't eat, even if I'm hungry because I want more to recover my slim countenance than I want to eat.
If we always do what we most desire to do at, is that free will?
This not meant to be a trick question or a straw man. I'm just not that sophisticated.
I’m reminded of a Star Trek (TNG) episode where they discover they are in a time loop in which the Enterprise is destroyed. They then ask the question, is the Enterprise destroyed because they try to avoid the event or because they don’t?
Is the Universe predetermined or not? If it is, I mean, what’s the point? It would mean we are trapped into predetermined paths.
It sort of like watching a movie we haven’t seen before. To us, it looks spontaneous (if it is well done) and the characters appear to be acting with free will. But, we know the movie is predetermined. Someone wrote the whole thing out and the actors are only making it look unpredictable.
Ironically, this is one of the arguments by gays. Many claim they don’t have a choice about whether or not they are gay. Are they now going to tell me they also have free will?
I don't have answers here, only questions.
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage.
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)
So what does that mean?
There are plenty of things under our control every day over which we choose not to exert control. I don't think God would have any less free will in general than we would in how or when He chooses to exert his control.
Agreeing to discussion on these terms is also agreeing to consider no other possibilities.
Game theory. To the Holy One blessed be He, the universe is a open, determinstic game...and, of course, He knows the perfect strategy.