Does Islam Call For Murder of Infidels?
Dean
Dr. Hassaballa says no, citing the Koranic verses that supposedly justifies this practice and demonstrates Islam's supposed violent nature, and responding. His response is in five parts:
Generally speaking, as I have said many times, I will take the word of practicing muslims about their faith over the word of members of competing faiths--including atheists--over what the religion "really means."
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- Does Islam Call For Murder of Infidels?
An excellent point. For myself, I think actions speak louder than words, so I'll take the actions of the practitioners, rather than their opinions on the subject, as an indication of what a religion "really means".
Yeah, I kind of expected that policy. You may have mentioned it before :) And we know that practicing Muslims would have greater ability to assess their own faith objectively.
I personally take convicted criminals word for their beliefs over those from competing value systems over what the convict's values really are. Just makes sense. Everyone else is biased.
An excellent point. For myself, I think actions speak louder than words, so I'll take the actions of the practitioners, rather than their opinions on the subject, as an indication of what a religion "really means".
By their fruits you shall know them. Thanks, DSmith.
We've been imagining all this Islamic terrorism. The real roots of Islam involve peaceful co-existence with Jewish and Christian states. Allows for the building of churches and synagogues in Islamic lands. Permits people to leave the faith peacefully. Nothing to see there, just move along ...
But to be fair to Dean, it does matter what the official policy is, too.
It's like asking a liberal Episcepalian about their stance on gay marriage and then extrapolating that stance to include all of Christianity.
It's just poor logic.
But I'm neither a scholar of Islam nor of folk practice in Muslim countries so I'll have to leave my comments there. How much does it really matter to non-Muslims if those Muslims who profess such beliefs are heretics?
The Lord�s Resistance Army in Uganda thinks that all laws should be based on the ten commandments. They use this �belief� to rape, murder and pillage. They are similar to the early Wahhabis, and their beliefs have about as much to do with real Christianity as Wahhabism &and their version of Shariah law has to do with Islam. But the LRA doesn't have much money, so they can't afford to spread their philosophy worldwide.
When Sheik Saleh Al Luhaidan told young Saudis to kill Americans in Iraq, his word is law. He is the chief justice of Saudi Arabia's Supreme Judicial Council, and he is a member of the government.
Yours,
Wince, aka Tom Hawkson
Check Nigeria, law of Sharia---stoning females to death for adultery ?
Check New Jersey Mosque--blind cleric-Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, WTC bombings.
Check London Mosque---Richard Reid, shoe bomber now in federal prison.
Check Mohammed Atta----commandeer 9/11 dies flying into WTC.
Check Sergeant Hasan Akbar---US Army--throws grenades in US officers tent.
Check Yasser Arafat----- father of teenage martyrdom, Palestine, Israel.
Check John Walker Lindh ---USA aka Abdul Hamid (‘I plead guilty’), from a Marin County Islamic Center. Now in federal prison.
All practicing muslims. Or have we forgotten ?
In the words of Christopher Hitchens:
“In Iraq, Muslim militants place bombs in the mosques of those Muslims they regard as heretics. In Afghanistan and Pakistan, too, the Salafi and Wahhabi extremists commit murder against Muslims they deem unclean or unorthodox.”
Let us pray, Dr. Hassaballa, a voice for peaceful Islam may prevail. Don't hold your breath.
Poor logic? Tell you what: Christianity is an evil religion that preeches slavery to God and submission to kings and dictators, and that history has proven to be both violent and intolerant. Prove me wrong.
Oh, what, those people weren't practicing the "true faith?"
Don't bother answering that question, it's a rhetorical question. You know the answer, you hypocrites. You've decided you know all there is to know about Islam that matters and, furthermore, you've opted to argue with me about it rather than discuss it with practicing Muslims.
Very telling.
I call bullshit on you people. Bullshit, and chickenshit.
Here I've given you links to a practicing muslim who is both a koranic scholar and a blogger. A blogger who has comments. A muslim scholar who directly addresses the many Koranic verses that (mostly Christian) critics of Islam like to pull out of context as "proof" of how violent intolerant Islam is, and explains how they're being taken out of context.
And instead of discussing the matter with him, you choose to argue with me?
BWOK BWOOOK BWOK BWOK! Chickenshit Christians, afraid to talk to debate any actual muslims! BWOK BWOK BWOK BWOK BWOK!
Therefore, I indict all Christians--after all, it's what Christians DO, not just what they say.
And no, I don't need to bother talking to any actual Christians about that. They're obviously just obfuscating if they try to deny that genocide, terrorism, and slavery are integral to their faith.
Want me to put you in touch with some former Christians who converted to Islam so they can tell you everything wrong with Christianity? Can do, can do!
Oh, wait, they can't be objective or fair? Who can be then?
Bullshit.
We have all these Christians who are happy to make their snotty comments about "dhimmitude" and give a list of Koranic quotes out-of-context to tell us how "Islam is the true enemy," and when I call them out on their crap it's all about how I'm being mean to them?
Fuck them. How many of these fucking cowards have the balls to actually talk to a real muslim and try to sell their shit about how evil Islam is?
What, you can't be bothered to talk to an actual muslim before passing judgement on them? What a bunch of pussilanimous fucking cowards!
My point, and I think perhaps the point of others, is that *it doesn't matter* what Dr. Hassaballa says. Debate with him would be pointless.
So you found a Muslim scholar that says thus-and-so? So what? As pointed out in this thread, other senior Muslim scholars have said otherwise. Since there is no final authority in Islam, you get to take your pick on which one to believe, and which one you think represents the "truth" about Islam.
It also doesn't matter what has happened in the non-recent history of Christianity. What matters is who is killing people *today*? Who is torturing people *today*? Which religion has very senior members inciting young followers to terrorism *today*? Hint: it ain't Christianity, at least so far as I've noticed, and as soon as it is I'll be on them like a ton of bricks too (aside: I'm not a Christian).
Once again, it doesn't matter what you say, or I say, or what Dr. Hassaballa says. What counts is who is doing the torturing and murdering. That's all that counts. The theoretical "justification" for this, or the search for "root causes", strikes me as irrelevant.
But less irrelevant than your name-calling. Bullshit, Dean.
To say that "Islam means (anything)" is silly. Islam means what it's practitioners say it means.
There are definitely passages in the Koran that are pretty harsh towards unbelievers. The word, "Dhimmi" didn't come from nowhere. There are also passages in the Bible that call for killing certain people. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and others. Leviticus in particular calls for death to adulterers and some other sinners. Jews used to stone adulters. Remember, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."?
It's how it's practiced. I'm happy there are Moslems who don't want to kill me because of their religion. It is an undisputable fact that there are very many who do want to kill me because of their religion.
I don't feel it's chicken to not debate the good Dr. because I don't disagree with him unless he's saying no Moslems want to kill me because of their religion. And if he's saying that then there's no use debating him because what could I add to the argument that 9/11, Madrid, Bali and Iran haven't?
Case in point.
No. It is all about how you are becoming them. You bitch that people "know the answer" and are hypocrites and won't argue with Muslims? You've read the work of one guy, decided that he is right, and now won't defend your endorsement of his opinion. Instead, you decide to call names and make this about Christianity.
You say that "Generally speaking, as I have said many times, I will take the word of practicing muslims about their faith over the word of members of competing faiths—including atheists—over what the religion 'really means.'" You know what? I'll look at the actions of practicing members of a faith when I judge it. I was of the opinion that Islam was the problem. Now, I am of the opinion that Arab Islam is the problem, with a bigger emphasis on Arab than Islam.
Regardless, I'm not going to take it up with someone who holds a hard and fast position it on. I'll do that on some issues for fun, but this is Serious Shit. Life and Death Shit. I'm going to work in the middle, with the people who can be persuaded one way or the other. I'm sure that there will be more of those here than there, and I can't be the only one that sees it that way. I'm not going to convince the middle of the road by insulting the other side, or by making myself feel better by making fun of someone. I'm going to do it by being right and showing it in the places where the people in the middle are, not by shouting at my enemies. They aren't my audience.
Why do you assume that they are "cowards" who don't "have the balls to actually talk to a real Muslim"? Because they haven't gone to talk to this one? That's a false assumption, bad logic, and simple bad thinking. A lot of what I am seeing from you lately is starting out with a position, and then going straight to the ad hominem against your perceived enemies. It may feel good, but it isn't going to convince me of anything that I didn't already have a position on. It is just going to convince me that you aren't quite the rational, thinking guy I had previously determined you to be.
As for me, can I be bothered? Hell, I host a blog for a Muslim on my domain. I'm not a hosting service — he's a friend that I am proud to have on my site. That doesn't mean that I am going to stop trying to do something about what I see as flaws in Arabian Islam.