Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Saint Andrew's Cross

First of all, I swear to God, The Queen and I absolutely did not collude on this. I was at work on break last night, and she was at home, when she wrote this post: Are We In Danger Of Becoming A Theocracy?

I don't entirely agree with her position, but I have to think something must be in the air. She was responding to still another blogger on the same subject.

Meanwhile, Tim over at the always-excellent "Crack the Bell" weblog raises the issue of the following flag, also referred to as the St. Andrew's Cross:

CSA Flag

First off, you should read Tim's piece, which raises the issues this flag brings up very well. You can click right here to read it. I disavow none of it. None of it at all.

When I wrote my article on flags, I almost mentioned this particular flag. But I knew that if I did so, it would raise a host of distracting and thorny issues. Those outside of the United States probably have no great interest in that particular flag, but many Americans have quite adrenaline-inducing reactions to it. I sort of hoped to avoid the issue, but being an American by birth (and southern by the grace of God), I guess I have no choice.

So first, I will say: Yes, that is indeed known as Saint Andrew's Cross. Those who designed it called it that. Quite probably because so many of them were of Scottish and Irish ancestry.

That flag is more commonly known as the "Confederate flag" or simply "the rebel flag." During what America calls her Great Civil War, fought between 1861 and 1865, this flag represented the cessesionist states. And yes, without doubt, it was an explicitely Christian symbol. Then again, many of those who fought against it viewed it as a violation of their Christian values.

I am troubled by bringing this flag up. My problem with it is not its background as a Christian symbol--it was--but rather that it injects the politics of mid-19th century America into the international politics of the early 21st.

I would ask Tim, for example, if he really believes that the people of Scotland, or even the people of Jamaica, would like to be associated with this rebel flag?

But deeper than that, I'll make a personal statement: I have both Yankee and Rebel roots. I do. Furthermore, I feel them both deeply. Whatever you think of me, it's just the truth: I relate to both Union and Confederate thinking on a very fundamental level.

What should you make of that? Well, honestly, what can you make of it?

I can tell you that the Esmays, whose lineage I can trace all the way back to the late 1700s, were always yankees. I can point to the names of my Esmay ancestors who fought in the civil war, and they all fought for President Lincoln. Yes, all of them. If you search through civil war records of those who served, you'll find a few Esmays. They all fought for--and some died for--the Union.

Yet in my matrilineal lines, there may have been those who fought for Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. To be honest with you, I would not be in the least bit ashamed of that, even though I believe slavery is one of the most vile blights on the (very lengthy) list of mankind's sins (as Robert E. Lee also believed). I would not be ashamed. Why should I be?

Those people were not me. But more than that: Were not there Germans who fought under Hitler who served with valor and distinction? Was Rommel truly a villain? Was every soldier who fought under Stalin in the war against Hitler to be despised? Was every soldier who served under Custer a monster? Was every Japanese officer who served under Tojo a dishonorable scumbag?

When General Lee finally surrendered to General Grant, and America's great civil war ended, President Lincoln declared that the nation must heal itself. He proclaimed that all those who had fought on the part of the south should be treated with honor and dignity. "With malice toward none, with charity toward all," we should go about the business of binding the nation's wounds. Yes, the unconscionable business of slavery--which more than 80% of the soldiers who fought for the confederacy had never been a part of--was ended. But now it was time for our brothers who fought against each other to forgive each other.

And so it was ended--as it should have been ended. In the intervening decades, the men who had fought in that war--whether they had worn blue or grey, whether they had served Lincoln or Davis, Grant or Lee--viewed each other as brethren, and honored each other. They considered themselves to have been a part of what they called "the Great Army of the Republic." No matter whose side they had fought on, they all knew they were part of it, and that it was over, and that they forgave each other.

And the evil institution of slavery, which most of the men who fought for the South never really cared much about--since most of them were way too poor to have ever owned slaves in the first place--was ended.

Yet today, very sadly, some want to renew the image of those stars and bars, that flag that flew over the Confederate States of America, and to fight over it still. Yet here is the funny part, as I see it:

There are now two camps who today invoke that symbol to their own ends. And both, quite frankly, are dishonoring its memory.

First there are those stupid and belligerent racists--some southerners, but some perverse northerners whose ancestors never had any part in it--who raise it as a symbol of "white power," of "putting the nigger in his place," of Jim Crow, and even (laughably) of "the south shall rise again."

But I must tell you there is a second group that seeks to attack this symbol of long-dead honor: those who seek, in their own arrogance, to assert their moral superiority.

In all honestly, and from the bottom of my heart: I grew up in Texas and spent a good part of my youth in Virginia. That being the case, I was exposed many times as a child to the Rebel Flag. And I tell you without the slightest evasion that as a child I never once--never once, ever--associated the image of that rebel flag, that St. Andrew's Cross, with hatred for black people, or an urge to restore slavery.

Never. Not even once. Ever.

Furthermore, I know many people--atheists, Christians, apatheists, even Jews, who look upon that symbol of the confederacy and think no such things. Rather, they think something that Abraham Lincoln himself would have agreed with: "that is a symbol of men who fought and suffered and sometimes died, honorably and well in many cases, for a cause that they believed in but was ultimately wrong. We can honor their sacrifice without endorsing all they believed."

Many people would be content to leave it at that.

I wish more were.

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Quoted
  2. The Confederacy was built on Slavery
  3. Saint Andrew's Cross
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HokiePundit (mail) (www):
I live in Northern Virginia, so that flag's not very common near me (we're Mid-Atlantic, not South), though I see it some at Virginia Tech in SW VA. I agree with Dean: except in movies, I've never seen it used as a symbol of racism (I've even seen black people displaying it). Usually, it's on a t-shirt or the back of a truck, often with a slogan like "Southern Girl," "Pride Not Prejudice," or "Heritage Not Hate." It's often accompanied by a NASCAR sticker or hat, "Git-R-Done" or "Ain't Skeered," or sometimes a college sticker.

At least from what I've seen, there's not a lot of racism in the South. There may be racial tension sometimes, but more often than not it seems to be Northern or West Coast.
4.28.2005 1:44pm
Kerry (mail):
In the intervening decades, all the men who had fought in that war--whether they had worn blue or grey, whether they had served Lincoln or Davis, Grant or Lee--viewed each other as brethren, and honored each other. They all considered themselves to have been a part of what they called "the Great Army of the Republic." No matter whose side they had fought on, they all knew they were part of it, and that it was over, and that they forgave each other.

Sounds really nice; pity it's a complete fantasy. Is it even possible for someone raised in the South to be unaware of the consequences of Reconstruction?
4.28.2005 1:50pm
Dean Esmay:
It's not a complete fantasy, sorry. Everything I said is historically correct.

That said, there were also terrible northern depredations by carptetbaggers and others--and many northern white liberals forget all that, and pretend that those who bring it up are merely racists. The KKK, when it began, was not about oppressing the black man, but about lifting the bootheel of the oppressing northerner against the surrendered south.

That said: it would be foolish to deny that much of what transpired in the south in the intervening century was not aimed primarily at blaming the negro for every bad thing that subsequently happened, whether he deserved it or not.

My greater point is this: we can either honor our ancestors' memory and let the past be the past, or we can poke at the festering sores of past generations.
4.28.2005 2:03pm
ILNative (mail):
I used to dismiss calls of "Racism!" when the whole Confederate flag brouhaha started. I used to think, like you do now, that flying the "Confederate" flag (which is really the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, I think, not the flag of the entire CSA) was just a way to honor their heritage.

But then I read somewhere that the Confederate flag HASN'T always been flown in Southern states. That until the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, you hardly saw it anywhere. Georgia didn't incorporate the Confederate flag into their state flag until 1956, two years after Brown v. Board of Education was handed down by the Supreme Court.

And that said something to me. It seemed disingenuous to all of a sudden, 80 years after the Civil War is over, to decide that your Southern heritage needs celebrating. Was it coincidence that such a decision is made at the same time Jim Crow laws were being struck down and schools were being integrated? Maybe. But I don't think so.
4.28.2005 3:40pm
Tim (mail) (www):
My experience in South Carolina is quite different, apparently, than that of Dean in Virginia. Here, that flag is very much a symbol of racism. I've heard all the "We're just honoring our brave Confederate dead" crap down here to last me a lifetime. I also had a grandparent who fought as a Confederate soldier. No, I'm not ashamed of that. I'm saddened by it, but not because he may have fought for slavery. In fact, I'm pretty certain that he didn't. No, I'm saddened because I suspect that my grandfather - and the vast majority of other Confederate soldiers - were duped into fighting for some grand cause by a white aristocracy that had even less use for poor whites than for the slaves they owned because they couldn't legally force the poor whites into working their plantations.

Anyway, I never meant to open up a discussion on racism and the damn Confederate flag, which again, I've had enough discussion about to last me a lifetime. I simply wanted to draw the connection between the use of that flag and theocracy by pointing out the links between Christian Exodus and the League of the South.
4.28.2005 3:52pm
Rhianna (aka rmschoon) (mail) (www):
Dean, I know Klansmen (well, ones I highly suspect of it...I've never seen the robes, and honestly I don't want to, I love them as friends and to seem them like that would seriously color my future views on them in a very bad way). The Klan, just like unions and the Mafia, has far outlived it's usefullness. It is now nothing more than a bunch of racists that don't have the balls to show their faces when they commit their crimes.

In the South, there is a bit of fantasy about what you wrote. They didn't all put down their arms and take up the love of brothers. Many did, but louder uncouth ones did not. Those remnants are the same ones that cause problems today.

I really do wish Lincoln would have lived. I truly believe, in my heart and soul, that Lincoln would have done his best to 'bind the nation's wounds' and that the scourge of Reconstruction would not have been visited on the South. Washington and Jefferson may have birthed a nation, but Lincoln had to hold it together while it tried to rip itself apart, he is the far greater President in my eyes. I'm only sorry he didn't get to see her healed.

Also, just because a bunch of hate mongers stole the flag doesn't mean the flag doesn't have multiple meanings. It is naught but a cloth, the beholder alone assigns meaning to it. (Just as many Eurowennies look at a US flag and see rape, pillage, empire and destruction...I won't take down my US flag for any of them and I won't bash the Confederate Battle Flag for anyone either.)

It's a flag, let her fly. Don't honor her if you don't want to but don't call me a racist because I do (and all the men, women and children that died under her).
4.28.2005 4:06pm
Ted Armstrong (mail):
Why would an avowed athiest swear to God?
4.28.2005 5:09pm
Sam Muldia (mail) (www):
Probably the same reason non-Hindu people say 'Holy Cow!' Figure of speech.

Wouldn't it be blasphemous for a theist to swear something on the Almighty?
4.28.2005 5:50pm
Ted Armstrong (mail):
I was just struck by the apparent contradiction. I think that words spoken in a conversation and words put to computer screen and read come off differently.

But this is going way off topic.
4.28.2005 8:22pm
Martin (a.k.a. UML Guy) (www):
Dean,

Back in what seemed (maybe through the lens of nostalgia) like less contentious times, my Mom ("I'm so liberal, I'm radical," though I don't think she really understands how radical radical is) was involved in local politics. Democrat Mom and UAW Dad were always on the losing side, of course, because the Republicans in our area had`at least an 80% lock on the vote. (And let me tell you: these were the sort of Republicans who give Republicans a bad`name.)

During the Bicentennial year, a local store offered different US historical flags, along with booklets that explained their history. We got them all, and we studied them all.

And we had the tallest darn flagpole in the neighborhood. And whenever Mom got fed up with the local politicos and their abuse of the public purse for their private gain, down would come Old Glory, and up would go one of the fightin' flags: Don't Tread on Me or the Rebel flag.

A symbol can symbolize many things, not just one thing. To my Mom -- loyal Democrat all her life -- that flag was about fighting for what you believed in, and telling the self-important to go to hell.
4.28.2005 8:25pm
Ted Armstrong (mail):
I remember at one time Apple Computer flew a pirate flag.
4.28.2005 8:52pm
Dean Esmay:
Of course the KKK today is nothing but a bunch of ignorant racist fools. But see, that's part of the historical oddness: the KKK of today is a separate organization from the Klan that formed in the days after the civil war. That original KKK was formed, served its purpose, and disbanded within ten years or so. By the end of the 1870s, they were nothing but a memory.

The KKK we know today was founded around 1918 by a preacher who expropriated their symbols.

That doesn't mean the old KKK wasn't racist, for it was, but racism wasn't their reason for being. Rather, they were the enforcement arm of the Democratic Party that was fighting off abusive behavior by Republicans during the early days of the reconstration.

But that's a history most people just don't know. It doesn't fit in with their prejudices.
4.28.2005 9:32pm
Rhianna (aka rmschoon) (mail) (www):
I know. I've got family from Mississippi (and friends from there). I KNOW the history of the South and North, the 'War of Northern Aggression' (seriously, some folks still call it that). It's a pity that Yankees can't seem to be taugh the same depth of history.

On the Klan front, I really wish Forrest was not as badly treated as he is. He broke from the Klan because of how convoluted and rascist it got...that's not remembered though, he's just the 'father' of the Klan and nothing else.
4.28.2005 10:00pm
RattlerGator (mail) (www):
Forgive me if I ramble too far off point:

Hokie-Pundit, disabuse yourself of the idea that your part of the "mid-Atlantic" is not in the South; it most definitely IS in the South, from Delaware on down.

Up-South to be sure, but most definitely the South. Because there's a hell of a lot more to the South than a drawl, y'all.

Or the Rebel flag.

Interesting post, Dean. I believe what you wrote, every bit of it. That flag, like the Southland, causes such a varied response all across America that it never ceases to amaze me. It's like we all live in our own personal bubble when it comes to the South, so that someone living in Northern Virginia thinks nothing of stating that he doesn't live in the South.

I have a sister, my oldest sister, who was born in Georgia and raised in northeastern Florida, college degrees from an Ivy League school, lives in Philly, and she is a great woman and fine sibling -- but she now has the most cartoonish (or so it seems to me) ideas about the South. Doesn't matter if we're talking about white people in the South or black people in the South -- it's really mind-boggling.

From inside my personal bubble, I don't have a problem with that flag on cars, t-shirts, billboards, etc. I do have a problem with it flying on any governmental flag pole. I don't have a problem with folks honoring Confederate soldiers; I do have a problem with Southern officials honoring them to the exclusion of Americans fighting to preserve the Union, including United States Colored Troops.

For me, Douglas MacArthur is dispositive; I'm told he made this statement to the 1933 graduating class at West Point:

A good soldier, whether he leads a platoon or an army, is expected to look backward as well as forward, but he must think only forward.

I think that's good advice in the civilian world, too.

Whether discussing social security or race relations, or even things Southern, Americans would do well to stay centered on thinking forward.
4.28.2005 11:55pm
Bill:
I was born and raised in Jersey City, NJ, in the '40s and '50s. I don't recall having or hearing any particular opinion of St. Andrew's Cross, but I accept your interpretation. The South was, for me, a dark, mystical, and dangerous place.
4.29.2005 12:19am
Casey Tompkins (mail) (www):
Tim sez:
No, I'm saddened because I suspect that my grandfather - and the vast majority of other Confederate soldiers - were duped into fighting for some grand cause by a white aristocracy that had even less use for poor whites than for the slaves they owned because they couldn't legally force the poor whites into working their plantations.


Um, actually, no. Historian SE Morison (among others) quite consistently held that the actual impetus to secession came from the middle-class whites, not from the older "Bourbon" aristocracy. In fact, Morison expressed the belief that, if the Bourbons has maintained a hold on leadership in the South, would have managed to defuse the crisis without war.
4.29.2005 1:40am
Dean Esmay:
Abraham Lincoln stated more than once that if the South would put down their arms, they could keep their slaves.

But never mind--there's just no point in talking to some people. They want to have their little rants about the evil southerners and their bigotry, and that's that.
4.29.2005 7:08am
Rune from Oslo Norway (mail):
The x or Greek cross is known as Saint Andrew's cross because the apostle Andrew was crucified on such a cross. Link
4.29.2005 7:10am
Timothy Snyder:
I grew up in the south - Lousiana and Georgia, was educated in the public schools and university in Georgia. I have rarely seen the "Stars and Bars" used in anything but a racist or anti-American icon. We are talking about a sucession that was NOT democratic in the least, and a time in our great history that was dreadfully sad. That symbol is equal in hatred and divisivness as is a Nazi Swastika. Most southernors (and sadly, many non-southernors) sport that "flag" as a symbol of a long past time of whites-only dominance in their "backyard."

We are talking about a symbol of a "country" that broke from the United States of America because they wanted to continue to own other human beings for economic gain.
4.29.2005 11:38pm
Dean Esmay:
Horseshit, Tim, horseshit. It never meant that to me, and it never meant it to the vast majority of people I've known in my life who viewed that symbol with some affection or pride.

You're projecting your own issues on others.
5.1.2005 7:17pm