God's People
Dean
I have a good friend who's the son of an Orthodox rabbi. He himself studied to become a rabbi before deciding it simply wasn't his calling. He speaks fluent Hebrew, even studied at a rabbinical school in Israel. He's a proud (to the extent that pious Jews are allowed to be proud) orthodox Jew, a fiercely protective member of his people and his faith.
I've had a number of late-night (and sometimes beer-laced) discussions (and occasional arguments) with him. A fact that will interest some Dean's World readers is that he is certain that I can't possibly be an atheist. He's wrong about that, but I digress.
In any case, he's told me something that I found utterly unsurprising: in the quiet of their own arguments, away from the public, pious Jews of course consider Christianity a heresy. Not in an angry way, not in a "we must stamp it out" way, nor in a "we should hate them" way. Not at all. Most of them have Christian friends, respect and even love them. It's just, you know: "There's just no way this Jesus guy was the Messiah. And oh, have you ever noticed that these Christians have some really odd beliefs about the Bible, because they have no understanding of Talmud at all?"
I think a lot--and I mean a whole lot--of my Christian friends seriously need to sit down and have some (ecumenical, friendly) discussions with some pious Jews. Because what you Christians think you understand about the Old Testament versus what your average observant Jew thinks is often night and day.
There's a common strain of Christian thought which basically holds that Judaism is a sort of limited, primitive, constrained faith that, because it lacks Jesus and the New Testament, is sort of dark and depressing and authoritarian. It's as if they think everything for the Jews is all that is written in the book of Genesis through the book of Malachi, and it all sort of ends there.
That's not even close to the truth. Especially because, when you speak of what the Christians call the "Pentateuch" (the first five books of the Bible), the Jews think that what Christians miss is extraordinary.
The Jews have thousands of years of commentary and debate on those five books. Serious Jewish worshippers not only learn these books in the original ancient Hebrew, but often spend their life studying Talmud, which encompasses thousands of years of rabbinical commentary on them.
The Jews also have something called the Oral Tradition, which is referred to in the first five books of the Bible but which most Christians know nothing at all about. That oral tradition, combined with Talmudic scholarship, combined with the fact that most observant Jews grew up reading Torah in the original Hebrew, often causes some Jews to snicker at Christian interpretation of things found in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronmy.
"What, they said that? Bwahahahahahaha!!!!"
There's much to discuss there--indeed, thousands of years of things--but I'd like to share with you what prompted me to write this essay. Before I get to that point, though, I'll share something profoundly amusing that I have learned about the Jews:
Christians understand that God came to Abraham and made a covenant with him. For Christians, it sort of ends there: God appeared to Abraham and declared to Abraham that he would have a covenant with God.
But in the Jewish tradition--which encompasses many thousands of years--there is a catch that flies completely past most Christians:
A covenant is a contract. Contracts are not things that one entity imposes on another. Contracts are agreed upon. In the Jewish oral tradition, God appeared to representatives of many peoples of the Earth, and offered each His Covenant. One after the other, they refused.
Well, all but one refused. The man who didn't refuse was named Abraham.
Abraham accepted God's proposed contractual agreement. Abraham accepted God's covenant, when none other would.
Which leads to one of my favorite stories about the Jews. A century or two ago, a snotty, moderately anti-semitic writer wrote a nasty bit of doggerel:
"How odd,
that God
Should choose
The Jews!"
He didn't much like Jews, you see. But one Jewish wag soon dashed off a response:
"Not strange,
not odd,
the Jews
chose God."
These people have thousands of years of written (Talmud) and oral tradition in understanding their scriptures, of which most Christians are blissfully unaware. While some Christians may want to snort at this "oral law" that the Jews revere, it would be wise to recall that Christ said that he came not to change one word of the law, but to fulfill it--and he was a good Jewish boy, was he not?
To the Jews, the law has always included the oral law. To them, the Oral law was quite alive and well at the time of Jesus and the pharisees.
While Christians often think they understand all they need to understand about Torah, and even pat Jews on the head about it, the Jews (who are used to being an oppressed minority) often just shrug and say "whatever."
I suppose I could stop there. I'm tempted to. But here's something more I have to tell my pious Christian friends, which I hope my Jewish friends will forgive me for revealing:
In the quiet, when no one else is around, the Jews often ask themselves, "Do you think that Christianity, being so obviously a heresy, leads these people to being closer to God?"
They don't just think you guys get much of scripture wrong, mind you. Sometimes they think you get it ridiculously wrong. Indeed, at times, it seems almost like pure luck that you aren't all complete disasters, you get it so hilariously wrong.
By the way, if you aren't chuckling at that, then you should check yourself. You'd better be laughing, sinner. These people laugh at themselves as much or more than they laugh at you.
...
...
You know, I was tempted to end my essay right there. Just cut it off there. I was. But you know what? I think I should go on. Some of you may not like me for going on, but I'm going to:
Just by revealing what I just said (that the Jews wonder if you Christian people aren't all crackers), some of my Jewish friends may be upset. After all, they have survived as a people in large part by avoiding that kind of confrontation. I mean, you know that it's not just the holocaust that's in their memories don't you? It's also the razing of the temple, the crusades, the inquisitions, the burning of the heretics, the expulsion of the Jews from Christian Europe, and more.
I have seen a number of Christians on this weblog, and in other forums, spouting off about the flaws in Islam, about the corrupt and evil nature of that "oppressive" (maybe even "satanic") religion of Muhummad that "enslaves" people. Yet the people saying this, devout Christians most of them, need to hear an uncomfortable truth--one that more than one Jewish friend has quietly spoken to me. It's something which isn't spoken aloud much in America, but which most in the Jewish community know well:
On Shabbat after 9/11 (the evening of Friday, September 14th 2001, and the morning of Saturday September 15 2001), in synagogues all across America--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox--while there was much weeping and praying for the dead, praying for justice, praying for mercy and forgiveness, there was something else:
In synagogues all across America, quietly it was spoken by the rabbis and the other synagogue leaders: "The Christians, they may come for us."
They did. More than that, they also said:
"They may blame us for this, as they have blamed us for so many things in the past. We should not hate them for it--but we should be ready, and we should prepare for the worst."
Everywhere in America, the Jews prayed and wept for their countrymen--and clutched their children and readied themselves.
I love America--love it in the deepest parts of my marrow. The very fact that their fears came to naught affirms everything I love about my country and my countrymen. It's part of why I'd lay my life down right now to defend her. In a heartbeat, I would.
But I ask my Christian friends not to forget this: they were afraid of you. In their hearts, almost all of them were.
Afraid of you.
Not just "you Christians."
You.
I suggest that my Christian friends who like to excoriate other faiths such as Islam need, quite seriously, to stop and think very, very hard about that.
(But by the way, while I should end it there, I'll add one more thing: just in case some smug atheist is smirking at all of this: Shut the f*** up, moron.)
Related Posts (on one page):
- My Christian Friends
- Sins of the Fathers
- God's People
Don't almost all religions consider other religions a heresy? At a minimum they consider them wrong.
And we atheists consider them all fools, don't we?
How amusing.
I have hatred for the Jews, I in fact consider myself to be a form of Messianic Jew (yeah, yeah, a fallacy I know) that also embraces paganic tradition. I have alway defended the Jewish people from the "They Killed Christ" bullcrap. So now, in short you're telling me that because the Europeans are a hate-filled spiteful people that enjoy destruction of anyone different than them, that I as a American, a defender of Hebrew and Muslim alike am to be feared?
That says nothing of my charecter. It says nothing of my sins or transgressions. It speaks volumes about how far removed from society some Jews are. It never once even entered my mind that the Jews were responsible. I've never meet a vicious Jew in my life, but I've learned all too well living in Europe how Europeans view Jews, and how much they like their little boot-licking Muslims that spread the Blood Libel even today.
My family fled the horrors and hatered and wars that are Europe. They fled to America during the time of New Holland and New Amsterdam. They fled to America during the times of the Potato Famine and The Troubles. They were hauled to Georgia as petty thieves by the Crown. They fled the countless wars and the bloodshed. If their actions of removing themselves to a freer place, and honoring their fellow man counts for nought, why then do I defend the Jews from attack? Because I will give them a chance even if in their own hearts they fear me. Their fear is their own, I never instilled it and I won't be held guilty for it.
I think everyone is tempted to consider those that don't agree with them as fools - or worse.
I have to respect the Jews. For 2,000 years they've been harassed, murdered and oppressed all over the world for their beliefs but they still hold them.
I've long thought that if there is a god, the Jews have the right religion.
From reading history, if there is a god, he's a real SOB with one twisted sense of humor. He messes with the good and rewards the evil. Look at the history of the Jews. It's one long tale of their G-d fucking with them. Whenever they piss Him off they get sent into slavery or kicked out of their land or something equally bad. Even when they aren't pissing Him off bad things happen to them. European history is rife with pogroms against the Jews. Then, after 2,000 years of Coventry, they get a country smack dab in the middle of violent people who hate them most.
That's even funnier than the platypus.
Today is Good Friday, Rhianna.
Who do you think is being judged?
He went to the King of Babylon, and said "King, I have a Commandment for you, that your people might rise up from the wickedness that they are living in." The King asked Him "What is this Commandment you offer us?" G-d answered "Thou shalt not steal." And the King answered back, saying "Forget it. Our entire economy would collapse."
SO G-d went to the Pharoe of Egypt, and said "Pharoe, I have a Commandment for you, that your people might rise up from the wickedness that they are living in." The Pharoe asked Him "What is this Commandment you offer us?" G-d answered "Thou shalt not kill." And the King answered back, saying "Forget it. How could I maintain order and power."
So G-d looked out upon the world, and saw His people wandering in the wilderness, and went to their leader and said "Moses, I have a Commandment for you, that your people might rise up from the wickedness that they are living in." Moses asked "What will it cost?" and G-d answered "Only your wickedness; I offer it freely." Moses said "Free? I'll take ten."
Yes, I'm aware of the Talmud, the oral tradition, etc. Not deeply steeped in it (I'd be guffawing louder than anyone at the thought of that), but on some elementary level I am aware, and I've poked my nose in around the edges.
As for your account of how Christians view Judaism, Islam, and other religions... I dunno, Dean, my view of Judaism, Islam, and other religions is so different from what you're laying forth here that I honestly don't even know where to begin. With all due respect to you, Dean, I doubt you and I are even speaking the same language on this topic.
Again with all due respect, it's hard for me to take part productively in a conversation where the religious beliefs of a Presbyterian "mainline Protestant" like me don't even appear on the radar screen. Certainly there are many Christians who view Judaism more or less as you describe. But (and for me, here's the rub) there are also many Christians— many theologically traditional Christians— like me who don't even "exist" in the universe of discourse you've already established for this thread.
And I'll just have to leave it at that. Out here in meatspace, time and tide wait for no man: I've got to go get breakfast, then dive into preparing for tonight's Good Friday service.
Judgement was passed upon Christ just shy of 2000 years ago. He took the punishment GOD had meant to be meeted out to humanity. I will be judged upon my death for the worthyness of my soul. Until then, Messiah has paid the cost in blood for me to be spared that same judgement. People often grudge others what they cannot enjoy themselves. - Aesop.
Oh, triticale, I've often thought the same thing. That God answers to one name above the others...YHWH, not Allah, not God, YHWH. I can give you many quotes that equate to the same thing, but I consider humanity to be God's personal soap opera. He is one 'person' with a very sick sense of humor, and God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. - Voltaire (attributed).
Today is Good Friday, Rhianna.
Who do you think is being judged?
Rhianna gave the answer that I would have given. If I may steal it, just to repeat it: "Judgement was passed upon Christ just shy of 2000 years ago. He took the punishment GOD had meant to be meeted out to humanity. I will be judged upon my death for the worthyness of my soul. Until then, Messiah has paid the cost in blood for me to be spared that same judgement."
Excellent girlfriend, truly excellent.
Most of our scriptures come from the New Testament, you know Jesus' teachings. What are most Jews doing reading and intrepreting that heresy, I wonder? Boredom?
Jewish oral tradition? Who'd have thunk? The Talmud? Wow ... really, there's such a thing? And you tell me that Jewish people actually interpret scriptures differently than Christians? Shocking. And they've been doing it for thousands of years, not like those Christians that just started up last week. And you knew an orthodox rabbi's son and that Jews are afraid of us?
Me, I'm a bookkeeper's son. I don't want to shoot no one. I crossed my old man back in Oregon don't take me alive. Got a case of dynamite. I could hold out here all night.
[eyes roll]
I learn so much at Dean's World. You know I've never read a book, myself. Only Dean found the library.
I suppose if Jews didn't think we got Scripture wrong, they'd be Christians. And if we agreed with them that we got it wrong, maybe we'd be Jews.
And I perfectly understand how Jews would fear any upheaval in the world, given that it seems they are the immediate targets of "retribution" every time something goes wrong. If you ask me, the way people wig out over the Jews is strong evidence for the existence of at least the Jewish God, as well as the Jewish Satan.
Should I feel some kind of special shame for being Christian because of the mistakes of other Christians? No, I don't think so. But I don't think this way because I want to blow anything off; I do so because I believe it to be fundamentally and dangerously in error to make distinctions in the human capacity for evil based on group membership, belief, or any other factor. Christians are no less capable of horror, and no more capable, than any group out there.
I suppose it's a little strange hearing an atheist expound on theological issues, like Christian understanding of the Law. I could get into that, I suppose, if you want, but I think it's only incidental to your point. Suffice it to say that it's simplistic.
Now, I'm certain their are some anti-semitic Christians, as I'm certain their are some anti-semitic atheists, and some anti-semitic Hindus, and what-have-you. But they're not a powerful force in any church I've ever attended.
In fact, which political party in America today offers the most support for the state of Isreal? The Christian conservatives. Which political party would be happy to throw Isreal to the wolves? The other guys. When was the last time Christians failed to take Isreal's side?
I can recall several sermons where our interpretation of the Bible was contrasted with the Jews'. "Here's what the Jews believe, but we disagree with them *here* because of *this*." That's not an area I've done much reading on (I stick more to apologetics), but it's one most Christians are exposed to here and now. But then again, it's amazing how many Christians spend all their life in church and completely fail to absorb ANY knowledge at all, of Judaism or of their own religion. I guess that's what happens when you tell people they have to go to church or they're a very bad person--they'll go to church and sleep through the service.
I think the opposite is funny--how many Jews have no idea what the New Testament is about. Just last week I had a Jewish friend point-blank tell me that it's full of anti-semitic rants, it says that Jews are evil, etc. I laughed and told her, "You know that all but one of the authors of the New Testament was a Jew, right? So it would be rather hard for the NT to be anti-semitic unless they were all self-loathing masochists. In fact, until several hundred years after it was written Christianity was still considered a sect of Judaism."
Have you ever really met any Jews? We're all "self-loathing masochists." It's what we do best.
Like the post. And the revelation about 9/11 saddens me.
Mr. Licquia already touched upon the main thrust of what I was going to talk about. I expect Jews and Christians to intrepret the Bible differently. (Enter hardline Christian guy) The fact that most Jews missed the fact that Jesus is the Messiah makes this distinction quite clear. (Exit hardline Christian guy)
Indeed I think one of Jesus main gripes with the Jewish leaders of His time is that they spent so much time looking at the letter of the law they forgot the spirit it. One example of this is when Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and Jews got upset because they considered this work. Obviously, when know how Jesus felt about this.
So, while I appreciate the Jewish perspective on issues of the Tanakh, indeed seek it out, I believe that, on some level, they got some very important issues wrong. (Hence why we're not calling all Jews Christians.)
But, overall I enjoyed and appreciated your post.
And such dialogue is not just between Jews and Christians. It's between Evangelicals and Catholics (lots of disagreement about the importance of oral tradition there too). It's between Mormons and other Christians. It's between reformers and traditionalists.
I can hardly blame the Rabbis you mention from worrying about repercussions from 9-11 almost reflexively, based on the experience of the diaspora. But Dennis Prager, a Jew himself, regularly asserts that American Christianity is simply different than the European version it descends from. To him, it's not a coincidence that all the anti-Semitic pogroms you cite occurred on the other side of the pond.
Surely if you understand the limits of human reason you clearly undertand the possibility, even if doubtful of the probability. Yet Dean's post is written in such a way as to SEEM to not have factored that in.
But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know.
How absolutely true. I do love that Rumsfeld guy.
Catholics and Protestants have so much in common at this point that I think it's fair to lump them together as "Christians" for the sake of a discussion such as this one.
I honestly believe most Biblical scholars have access to the information shared among those who study the Old Testament writings.
It's awfully sad that Jews would have to fear their fellow citizens after 9/11, but I'm sure some did. After all, there is precedent from several decades ago.
Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all in the same spiritual family: we are "people of the book," in the Muslim phrase. We can't afford to knock each other. I believe on the whole Christians have figured this out (hence the huge support for Israel), but both Jews and Christians need better relations with Muslims (other than the Islamofascists, who won't be changing their stripes any time soon).
Not when there is a conspiracy theory going around that Jewish people stayed away from the WTC on that Tuesday.
Not when rhetoric about Israel got, if anything, nastier in the wake of the attacks.
Not when the term "neo-con" has become the new code-phrase for "Jew" in government, right down to the swapping out of "neo-con cabal" for "Jewish cabal."
The fear is legitimate, if possibly (hopefully) overstated.
—
On their view of Christians, hey, doesn't bother me. My personal (and possibly heretical) view is that God is big. Really, really big. SO big... *ahem*. anyway. We're all dealing with aspects of God, and their approach doesn't suit me particularly, but then, mine doesn't suit them.
Some people are mistaking the facet for the jewel.
Jewish tradition was that you couldn't even pick the heads off of grain on the Sabbath becuase it was work. Jesus' interpretaion was more like: <Jewish Mom> You work too hard, take a day off and recharge. You weren't meant to work all the time. And BTW would it kill you to talk to your Father now and then. He's very old and loves you a lot.</Jewish Mom>.
That, to me, seems to be the whole deal with what "Not one letter of the law...", "...not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it..." was about.
BK
As to the argument about Christian "misunderstandings" of the Old Testament, I have two responses. First is that I know a large number of Christians who are sadly ignorant of ALL scripture, New Testament and Old. They believe what they've been told about the Bible without ever having really studied it themselves. Listening to them giving opinions on what God does and doesn't permit/encourage can be a frustrating experience because they haven't the faintest clue what God actually said. On the other hand, I also know many people who have been intensely studying the whole bible for decades, reading commentaries, doing exegetical studies, reading Hebrew scholars, etc. They might not be specialists on the Pentateuch, but I challenge the assertion that all Christians are woefully ignorant of the that portion of the Old Testament.
After all, look at the European response to the event. Instead of uniting with America, it's keener on appeasing the Islamic radicals. Even after the radicals killed scores of Europeans in the Madrid Attacks, the Europeans rolled over onto their backs even more so. In such a climate, it's no coincidence that anti-semitism has skyrocketed on the Continent, and that nations such as France seems keen on blaming "that sh**ty little country" known as Israel for all the region's ills.
From the Jewish side, this made complete sense. Jews have a much longer memory than most Christians, and have seen seemingly rational people go mad with anti-semitism. Why would it be any different here?
I think the reason is the Bush administration's refusal to appease what it rightly saw was the true threat to America, and instead opening up an American budget-busting sized can of whoop-ass on the Middle East.
At the same time the Jewish position received strong backing from Protestant evangelicals - an event that simply didn't make sense from the Jewish perspective.
I can easily see events playing out the way the Jewish leaders feared after 9-11. Imagine Al Gore in the White House, a John Kerry, or any other member of the self-loathing American elite sitting in the Oval Office on Sept 12, 2001.
9-11 will be looked at as one of those defining moments in history where a million alternate realities spring from a single event. And in most of those realities, the Jewish People would have suffered.
And it's sad that it doesn't make sense from a Jewish perspective. Because, as long as I've been alive, American Protestants have been eager to help and support the Jews. The Jews just don't know it; they're scared stiff of a threat that doesn't exist.
Like my Jewish friend. It's obvious she'd never bothered to read the New Testament for herself, or she would have known that it's not in the slightest anti-semitic. She's just been told all her life that Christians are the enemy, that at any moment Christians will turn on them and start the Holocaust up all over again. Which simply ISN'T TRUE, at least as far as the American Protestant church is concerned.
The link between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is an interesting one.
From a scriptural standpoint (simplyfied, of course), Judaism is completely contained in Christianity, while Islam contains portions of the other two. I.E. The whole of the OT is part of the Christian Bible, while the Koran contains parts of the OT and NT (not necessarily consistent with the OT and NT, however), and traces Islam through Abraham's son with the Egyption maid. How prescient, the statement about "...always at odds with his brothers...".
From an Oral standpoint the Venn Diagram would look like your typical 3 way setup. Some elements exist in all three, some in only the 2-way pairs, and some only exist by themselves.
Personally, I don't see as strong a tie to Islam with Christianity or Judaism as I do between Judaism and Christianity. Interpretation between Jew and Christian over the OT mark most of the difference. The Jews believe they are promised a Messiah that will rule an Earthly Kingdom, but that this Messiah has not yet come. Christians believe that this Messiah has come but did not do so to set up an Earthly Kingdom (yet). Thus, Jesus is not the Christian Messiah, but the Jewish one, who allowed us Gentiles to tag along (Hence, for Rhianna, why I don't consider Messianic Jew a contradiction or fallacy).
Where Islam fails to lie on top of Christianity is that Islamic scripture denies the diety of Christ. To me this is not an interpretation issue. When Jesus was asked point blank "Are you the Son of God", Jesus responded with "I Am". By Jewish tradition, God was known as the great "I Am", thus Jesus' response was more than a simple "yes". According to Islam, Jesus was only a prophet, but Jesus never claimed to be a prophet, a great teacher, or even a "good" person (he specifically denied that one), he claimed to be one and the same with God. This is not the disagreement of interpretation of scripture (and of course a continuation) such as between Christians and Jews, but a dispute of the scripture themselves.
So I'm fully prepared to say that Christianity lies on top of Judaism, but I'm not prepared to say Islam lies on top of Christianity. There are links between all three to be sure, but my opinion is that they are not equal.
BK
As for Europe's rise in anti-semitism after 9-11, even that's not a rise in European Christian backlash. Keep in mind Europe is pretty hostile to Christianity as well. I know someone who used to live in Europe. He decided to ask some friends he had known for almost a year (He hadn't been there much longer) what they though of God, Christianity, etc. Their response was that his zealotry was what was wrong with the world (appearently one conversation in 9 months was zealotry) and that they were prepared to end the friendship if he ever mentioned God again.
BK
Just something to think about.
Come on, Bill. I think that it's pretty obvious that dean isn't addressing all christians, only the majority who aren't particularly well educated in theology (the majority of everyone is not particularly well educated in theology). There are around 8000 people who read Dean's World (or more, I haven't looked recently). He can't address his posts to everyone.
I mean, have you ever read a chick tract or wondered at the number of those things that he sells?
A lady I knew who once worked at Ford used to talk O.T. with a fundamentalist baptist, and she'd occasionally try to correct him on some point he'd get long-winded on about something or other in Genesis or Exodus. Finally one day he just said, "Yeah, right, like you've read it in the original Hebrew or something?"
She just smiled.
I fail to see why the Jewish community was afraid of the Americans going after them as a result of 911, maybe I have to read the entire post again.
LOL.
Christianity directly: Jesus was still a Jew on the cross. And originally, to become Christian, you had first to convert to Judaism (if you weren't already a Jew). This changed during the proseltyzing in Europe, when Greeks (among others) objected ("You want me to do what to my penis?") strenuously.
Mohammedanism indirectly. He basically decided that the Jews were mostly correct, that Jesus correctly extended/altered Judaism, and that he could - as a prophet - add/change more. When he started his wars, he quite expected the Jews to recognize this and support him - it is not until he realized they would not (as a people/nation) that he changed his prayer rug to face Mecca instead of Jerusalem. Musselmen still consider themselves among the "Peoples of the Book", meaning what we non-Jews usually call the Old Testament.
===
So all this is a family squabble. But then, those do have a way of becoming deadly.
Regarding the Pentacostal experience: you mean as in Pentacostalism, the speaking in tongues and whatnot? Seen it.
As for forcing people to convert by the sword: tsk, tsk. All those heretics weren't just burned for being Catholic you know. Some were burned for being Jewish or pagan.
"You will know them by their deeds"--and it's pulling a major fast one, in my view, to say that vile behavior by Christians "isn't true Christianity" but vile behavior by muslims IS "true Islam."
And as I have said in other forums: I'll take the word of practicing muslims about their faith over attack dog Christians who attack it.
I'm aware that Islam is the only major religion founded by a warrior, but I still think that Dean is right (and getting more right as the situation in the ME changes more minds and gets more people thinking about these issues deeply): even if we were disappointed by the mainstream Muslim reaction to 9/11 (condemnation not quick enough and not loud enough), reaching out to these people will help us in our campaign against Islamofascists.
I cannot always decide whether anti-semitism is more irrational coming from Christians or from non-Christians. Ultimately, I'll go with the former: more irrational there.
Anyway, Dean: Actually you haven't had a pentecostal experience. You haven't had a Christian experience at all. That's why you are an unbeliever. Attending and remaining closed to the experience is not experiencing ... it's checking an item off a checklist and confirming your prejudices. God won't force you into believing anything you don't want to believe. You have to open the door from your side.
This reminds me of your attitude toward AA, where you were closed to the experience and sure enough missed the miracle.
As far as Islam, if you ignore history and tendentiously select your facts to fit your paradigm, you're welcome to believe what you want. Just ignore the vast majority of Christian experience and everything just fits right into place. This is after all Dean's World. This is one where the Muslim countries are all free and spread liberty around the globe in the teeth of Christian terrorists who oppress women and fly planes into buildings. This is a world where Christ came down off the cross and conquered the Roman Empire by force and Mohammed died for his follower's sins, and then was resurrected from the dead. It's Dean's World, not the actual one.
Reaching out to the Muslim groups such as the ones Dean has been mentioning is a very good idea. Whether or not their interpretation of Islam is the "correct"/"true" one or not seems to me to be irrelevent. I like the guy who wants to be friends and tries to convince me to adopt a position, I'm not so fond of the guy who wants to kill those who won't adopt that position, regardless of what that position is.
And Christian anti-semetism is definitely more irrational. As the bumper sticker says: My boss is a Jewish Carpenter.
BK
I've commented once or twice here a long time ago about a contoversial post you put up on black people in America, I thought was pretty over the top. "Wuch you talkin about Willis" may have been the impetus for it I forget.
But this is a great post which you have clearly thought deeply about.
It is true, even this Jew, someone who experienced very little anti-semitism in my life and grew up in a mixed neighborhood with friends of all persuasions have grown to understand what I couldn't see as a child, perhaps thankfully, but which my father understands deeply as the son of a Polish immigrant, my beloved grandfather, who got the shit beat out of him on Xmas in Poland and a Lithuanian mother, who's entire town of Jews after hundreds of years got up 1 night and fled only due to the 'generosity' of a local police chief who gave a short pre heads up that the Kossacks were coming to town in a few days and were going to murder everyone.
Wey're not 'religious', was bar mitvahed and attend shul a few times a year.
But I think more than anything I understand how the grand global scheme works. Jews are/have been/always will be low in numbers. They are at the bottom of the hill... like the weak kid in class.... when things get uncomfotable in the world peer setting, and eventually life/world always does get rocky, the weak kid always has to fear someone is going to take a shot at him.
The Jews are perfect targets because not only are they small in number and perceived to be weak but they have beee intimately successful which creates a great target.
Like I told the black girl sitting next to me at Columbia conference we both attended, who knows more about Judaism and the conflict than most Jews -
"Its as simple as this. If 5 black guys are walking down the street their feared. Noone's going to mess with them. 5 Jews walking down the wrong street are much more likely to be messed with. They are perceived to be weak which engenders a lack of respect and resentment. You resent people for being weak."
Interestingly I brought up Reggie White being called a Jew by his Christian friends for wanting to learn Hebrew so he could learn the real meaning more intently of g-d's word in the Torah.... ironic? since Christians believe its G-d's word and Hebrew is its original language.
She said Christianity is Judaiasm. She's part of a co founded Church with Messianic Jews...
Well that's all.
Mike
I know enough alcoholics who've come to grips with their problems without AA, who actually did better with AA, to know that AA isn't everybody's answer. Yet still the AA people will tell you it's "the only thing that works." It's a baldfaced lie, but they'll keep saying it anyway.
Christians: well, you know, those ex-christians, they're all just full of it, right? Well, many are called, few are chosen, and don't cast your pearls before swine, right?
In any case, as for my selectively ignoring history as far as Islam goes: you know man, you might want to pluck the beam out of your own eye before you worry about the splinter in your brother's.
By the way, did you honestly mean to suggest that America's mission in the War On Terror is a Christian mission?
What promised experience?
Again, I'm not religious, but it does bather me how the fundamentalists (I don't mean that comparatively to the Islamic Fundamentalists at all) in the Protestant Church take an almost patronizing tone to Jews having it wrong.... Prager goes on a show with a Catholic Priest and Protestant head and he doesn't dare differ with them on the show on the text and only respectfully and very politely says they have a differing opinion on certain things.
However, the other 2 don't hesitate to point out how the Jews "got it wrong"....
But aint it amazing that when Reggie White spends 6 hours a day studying Hebrew with an Israeli scholar to learn the actual intent/meaning and nuance of the Bible not translated into English, what Christians believe is G-d's word... He's called a Jew by his own friends, who constantly ask him if he's "now a Jew"?
However, in a world where the far left and most of the Muslim world are really dangerous who can quibble with paternalistic patronizing from the closed minded within the American Christian community.
Mike
Islam is far more similar to Judaism than it is to Christianity by the way. Halal and Kosher are almost identical and there are many other striking similarities.
The theory goes is that Muhammad grew up in a town that had a lot of Jews and studied with his neighbor for a long time, who was a Rabbi.
Meanwhile, having been promised that if I sincerely prayed to Jesus Christ to enter my heart and be my personal savior that I might be born again through Him and have my life changed, and having actually done all that--well, Bill assumes that my faith must have been false when I did that, or something wicked must have overcome me afterward, or something. Nothing new: lots of my other Christian friends tell me the same thing.
I know my NT fairly well but at the moment I'm forgetting what the statements are about those who embrace the faith then fall away. It's basically that there's something fundamentally flawed about us if I remember correctly. Oh well, crackle crackle crackle, the flames of eternal torture await me because I just don't believe. [shrug]
You know, I'm just going to note one more thing: on this blogs, I've criticized Jews, I've criticized Christians, I've criticized Muslims, and I've DEFINITELY criticized atheists. Just for the record.
You are probably referring to a posting--I can go back and find it--where I specifically challenged white people to say what they found annoying about black people.
That was done in deliberate parody of what black comedians and social commenters do on a regular basis. My suspicion was that if I did that, people would laugh nervously or condemn me as a racist. Well, that was what happened. Which allowed me to make an important point: what's it say about America that white people aren't allowed to talk bluntly about race? Poor white trash (i.e. "rednecks") have it bad in this country, and people can and do say the most vicious things about them. A poor white kid who grows up poor in the sticks, or for that matter in a ghetto in Detroit or Chicago, has way less opportunity than, say, a Harold Ford Junior, a black kid who grew up the scion of a very wealthy, very politically powerful family in Tennessee, yet had the balls to get up on national television and claim that he "personally benefitted from Affirmative Action." It's a joke.
Oliver Willis, being the vicious race-hate merchant that he is, of course branded me a racist. So I called him out for the pampered suburbanite poseur that he is. He still owes me an apology, but I'm quite certain he'll never deliver it. After all, he's not a decent or intellectually honest person.
But regarding the Jews: Yes, the patronizing tone some Christians take is incredibly common. That it doesn't even occur to many Christians that Jews are still often worried about them--indeed, that so many Christians chose to take umbrage at my pointing this out--is pretty enlightening all by itself, isn't it?
Yep. Most Orthodox Jews will tell you that, both in matters of theology and in matters of daily practice, Islam is far less radical and disturbing than Christianity.
Of course, to an extent Christians are proud of that radicalism. But there's no doubting that it is radical by comparison.
You know me to be a Christian and, I hope, fairly open-minded about it all. I too have heard the "life changing" stories and the "feeling of peace" and it pisses me off each time I do. Why? Because that has never happened to me. I've never felt "the Spirit of God" descend upon me. I've never seen the face of Jesus appear before me in church and I damn tired of hearing other Christians saying they have! I can't help but feel left out. Where is my moment? Why is God holding it back? Am I doing something wrong?
There was a time in my life I got so upset I went agnostic. I was so mad I couldn't fathom the possibility of a God who would touch these people in such wonderful way but ignore me for whatever unfathomable reason. No matter how much I prayed or how hard I cried nothing would change. So, I gave God the finger and spent a small chunk of my life seething. In time, however, my head cooled and I realized what I was doing. Nowhere in the Bible are you promised a bed of roses should you except Jesus into your heart. Even if you do everything right you can still expect to be crapped on - moreso now that you're a citizen of heaven and not of earth. Jesus was tortured and excuted. Lies were told about Him and His closest friends abandoned and denied Him (one even betraying Him). And we, as Christians, expect better and get pissed when we don't get something we think we deserve? How laughable is that? It's a fact of life wrongs are rewarded and good is punished. The world is fallen and rewards those who revel in it.
I try to take heart in the fact that I've not had one of those "God revealing Himself" moments yet still retain my faith. I compare myself to C.S. Lewis in that reguard. He was a main who came to his faith with logic and held onto it even after the most devistating moment in his life (the death of his wife). His emotions raged but it was his mind, his rational facilities, that maintained his faith in the goodness of God - even when his heart felt crushed.
You can feel God is evil for whatever reason you want. That doesn't make it true. And it's faith that keeps us steady when we encounter such moments (as we all do). If God were evil then the question begs to be asked: Why does He bother with us at all? Why would an evil God become man, lowering Himself more than any of us could imagine, and allow Himself to be killed in such a brutal manner for creatures He must untimately be indifferent toward? It doesn't make any sense. God cannot be evil. All of creation screams this.
So, it comes down to faith. Can we just believe in His goodness when even our heart of minds tells us otherwise? And if we cannot, whose failing is that?
Faith. It's that simple.
I don't think faith is evil, and I don't think religion is evil. I have no interest in proselytizing atheism or in convincing anyone that their faith is wrong.
If this isn't so than what was it? And what makes you think God is unknowable when the Bible makes it clear that this is not so? Unless you reject the God of the Bible and in that case is it not you who says God is unknowable and not God Himself? I mean just because you feel God is unknowable doesn't make it so. How have you come to such a decision?
I have over time come to understand that the vast majority of Christians don't actually believe this. The Catholics don't, the Orthodox don't, and most of the mainline Protestants don't. That's really only a doctrine of a radical few. They're common in the U.S. mind you, but not much outside of it.
This belief about Hell did lead me toward apostacy though. For a long time as a kid I was terrified by nightmares about Hell. That led me to conclude (and it was rather scary at first) that if these people were right, God was evil. But from there it didn't go too long before I realized the only reason I'd ever believed at all was that fear.
They said to believe you had to have faith. I realized I have none. Show me firm proof or go away. The Christian answer is that the proof is all around us. Unfortunately that's the proof offered by a great many other faiths.
I don't mock people for having faith, and I have no interest in trying to convert them to my way of seeing things. It would appear to be futile to try anyway.
First of all, I don't have a log in my eye regarding Islam. I've never said the War on Terror was a Christian mission and I'm almost positive I've kept the two discussions (War on Terror, relative merits of Islam) fairly separate. I have said that terrorism may be rooted in Islam, and well, there's a lot of history to justify that. I also believe we sure as hell need to make sure people who are Muslim get the whole religious freedom here thing in the United States, and don't think that they can come here and impose sha'ria. Which many do and many talk about. They better not try. If they want to worship Allah and let the rest of us alone, more power to 'em.
You should also know that I've got mixed feelings on Islam, as my "Is Islam evil?" post should've made clear. Islam, on one hand, could be a mere catholic heresy, as Belloc says. Or it could be a religion of the devil. I lean more toward the former than the latter.
As far as AA, you aggressively missed the point. So aggressively that I can't discuss it without questioning your motives. It's OK, I've seen the pre-juding before with people who are new to getting sober :) And you also forget that while I got sober in AA, I haven't gone much in the past 15 years. So it's not like I'm an AA idealogue; all I was trying to tell you was there's a miracle to be found there if you followed the program. But I can't say more about this without questioning your motives and let's not go there.
Now, as far as experience, sorry, Dean. The Holy Spirit is not an euphoric state like a rock concert. I've had the rock concert experience, and I was not called to repentance, developed a deeper knowledge of my sinfulness and became closeness to God, had the scriptures opened, was able to pray effectively for others, and developed a faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Many others have described increasing freedom from sin; I've had some success in this area, but mostly fits and starts -- supernatural success in some ways, but I tend to backslide into ways that show the absence of the Holy Spirit quite effectively. So I can help others by being a negative example, too :) ). As a matter of fact, Dean, you gave the exact wrong answer. The experience of the Holy Spirit is something else entirely; it's not a trip. It's not like getting high. In some ways, it's the opposite of high, but there's still elements of extreme joy, but in a clean, clear way and without the hangover. And it tends to lead you into the desert and toward the cross, but that's another story. It's not all whistling and fishing in heaven. Ask the martyrs. In fact, often the closer you come to God, the harder it gets.
As far as praying Jesus into your heart, well, faith is one thing ... but what you had was baptism of water. You need the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's when your faith is confirmed to the point where you're not going to give it up, even if a few orthodox Jews laugh at you or some smart-ass agnostic on a Web site who misunderstands the NT think you're crackers.
Look at the Gospels. After three years of listening to Jesus talk and do miracles, and even after a few tours of doing miracles themselves, the disciples still fled on Good Friday, scattered and hid. That's because they had the right teaching, but they hadn't been internally transformed. But after Pentecost, with Jesus gone, they were transformed. It's at this point that the church began. And many of those Apostles were martyred rather than abandon Jesus again.
So it's not a question of "false faith," Dean. You just didn't go far enough. Especially in non-sacramental churches, you need to seek out baptism in the Holy Spirit. After that we won't be having these conversations.
As for AA: Oh, what the fuck ever. The cheap questioning of motives is one of the highlights of the Church of 12 Steps, of which I will (probably, never say never right?) be a member. I went there seeing exactly what many, many other people with drinking problems found: not what they needed. There is not and never has been any support for the notion that AA is what most drunks need, or that it works better than other programs. The "miracle" it offers is a system that helps a lot of people, but actually makes some people worse. But you know, just understanding these basic facts seems to upset some folks.
But as I've said before, the "you didn't do it right" excuse is the #1 thing that True Believers in any pseudoscience always use, whether it's vegetarianism, transcendental meditation, faith healing, or anything else use. "It didn't work for you? It's YOUR fault, it's because YOU had the wrong attitude."
It's a very common form of mind fuck, and a cheap rhetorical trick.
As for baptism in the holy spirit: okay, people offered me that. People even lectured me about its importance. You're hardly the first. Still, if there's some special way I'm supposed to seek it that I haven't before, that's just fine. Show me to it and I'll think about it.
I just won't have much truck with the "you must not have done it right" excuse. I've heard it one too many times, in more than one area--including this one.
Islam is far more similar to Judaism than it is to Christianity by the way. Halal and Kosher are almost identical and there are many other striking similarities.
DEAN
Yep. Most Orthodox Jews will tell you that, both in matters of theology and in matters of daily practice, Islam is far less radical and disturbing than Christianity.
Of course, to an extent Christians are proud of that radicalism. But there's no doubting that it is radical by comparison.
I didn't say that Christianity is more radical by comparison and I don't agree with that, not that I'm a biblical/religious scholar by any means. Neither Christianity nor Judaism have the term Jihad nor anything close to 'religious/holy war'.
Robert Spencer who I've read quite a lot of, is a respected scholar on Islam... and whom I've seen hold up nicely in debates with 'moderate Imams' online disagrees with that notion and documents it. Islamic scholars have even deferred to him on history and Koranic content in some instances...
You should read his blog and why he says in the end moderates in Islam don't have a real chance because Koran is more accurately described by the radicals.
Here are 2 relevant links -
Moderate Muslims use Quran against jihad
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005500.php
IslamOnline urges the spread of Islam in the West
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005510.php
Having grown up in a Baptist household (of the sort most would immediately identify as "religious right") and associated with Christians of lots of different stripes all my life, I can safely see that I've *never* seen the kind of attitude that you describe, Dean. Furthermore, I've never once seen an ounce of hostility toward the Jews. In fact, I've seen just the opposite. I've heard the Jews described as God's Chosen People and I've been taught...well...religiously that Jews, even though they have rejected the Messiah, will be rescued from destruction by God Himself.
I've never even gotten a whiff of anything you've described here and I wonder how you come to believe what you're written, Dean.
Jimmie: Long personal experience with Jews and Christians. Maybe you should try actually discussing religion with a Jew some time. And maybe you should look at the history of the Baptists--who obviously have gotten better in many ways, but we're talking history here.
I've been over the history of the Baptist church. It's surely not clean by any stretch of the imagination. But what I gather from what you said was that these fears existed in 2001. I can safely tell you that in the church in which I grew up, I never one heard one single disparaging word about the Jewish people, ever. Not once. Never. Take that for what it's worth.
Except one: I had no clue there were Jews fearful that we might blame them for 9/11. I love and respect too many Jews to have been affected by those crude lies, and perhaps that caused me to forget the almost genetic paranoia in Jewish culture. In a way, I say, "Good for them!" Paranoia is a safety mechanism that saves lives. I dearly hope they never trust too many people too much ever again.
In the end, it's all about projection - you fear what you already fear, and sometimes you see what you want to see. Some Jews were already wary if Christianity. Wary because of conversion efforts like Jews for Jesus. Because of worries (misplaced, IMO) that Christian activism = Christian theocracy. Or wary from old experiences with anti-Semitism, especially on the Right and from devout Christians. Many Jews had grandparents and parents in Eastern Europe who experienced Christian persecution first hand, often at the behest of a priest. Those stories get told, and they leave a long-term impression.
The world has changed. Anti-semitism mostly comes from the Left these days. Christians are increasingly seen as allies against a state that is often actively hostile to religion and religious values. Etc. And you're seeing corresponding changes in voting patterns and attitudes. Especially among the Orthodox, who are joining the Republican coalition in numbers as an explicitly faith-based group.
So take Dean's advice, by all means. Talk to some observant Jews, be they Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform.
Yeah, we think you guys got some theology wrong, even hilariously wrong, in ways that include but go substantially beyond Jesus. But you know, that isn't exactly news. You think we got a few things wrong, too, and that isn't news to us. We can agree to disagree, while focusing on the deeper unity shared by believers in ethical monotheism under a G-d of love and freedom.
What might be news is the reception you find for someone who takes their own relationship with G-d seriously, and respects others for it as well: welcome, interest, respect.
Who knows? You may even learn a couple of things that would deepen your own faith, and share some interesting biblical discussions along the way.