Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Muslims, Family Life, Honor, and Violence

Eric Scheie is angry about honor killings in parts of the muslim world.

For those who don't know, honor killings are the practice of killing someone for besmirching the family honor. Men of course kill each other over such things in all sorts of cultures. But what Eric's talking about here is the specific, fairly widespread, practice of a man--usually a husband or father--killing a wife or daughter for besmirching the family honor. This brutal practice is culturally accepted in many parts of the muslim world.

To understand the phenomenon, though, it's necessary to understand something else: it's almost always the family honor that's seen as besmirched, not the man's personal honor. That is not a minor distinction. More on that in a minute.

Try talking some time to someone who's from that culture, or lived there long enough to develop close friendships. You discover all sorts of things that no one's supposed to discuss out loud. For one thing, the power of family in such societies is enormous; family is usually seen as far more important than the individual, which is alien to our own culture but central to theirs.

It's also somewhat taboo to discuss this, but while publicly women are expected to step back and be submissive, in private, outside the public eye, they often hold tremendous sway over family life, and men often defer to them in all sorts of matters.

A friend of mine who's lived in Saudi Arabia once told me that the wealthiest and most powerful men, even princes, talk to their mothers every day for counsel and advice. Even if they travel abroad, even if they are in their 50s or 60s, they usually call their mother every single day so long as she's alive. My friend who told me this thought it would surprise me. It didn't. It matches what Arab friends have told me, and what I've read in many places about Arab culture.

Put it this way: Women aren't allowed to drive? Yeah, that's bad. They should be allowed to drive. But one of the dirty little secrets is that this usually means that a woman's sons or younger brothers become mules who are expected to drive her wherever she wants, whenever she wants. But pointing that out is considered impolite--and if you point it out to a Western woman, she usually thinks you're "making excuses for oppression."

No it isn't making excuses. It's noticing reality, and how it's not always as simple as we'd like to think it is. Cultures are rarely such simple things.

Anyway, Eric wonders why moderate muslims are usually silent about the practice of honor killings, and why so few Western feminists speak out about it. The practice must be condemned of course, but to condemn it effectively, in a way that is likely to affect change, we must look at some things that a lot of people are very reluctant to look at directly. It turns out that there's a dirty little secret here, one that some Western feminists have uncovered but have been reluctant to talk about, and which few in the muslim world want to discuss openly because it's considered taboo.

For the most blunt assessment, I recommend a book by a Western feminist scholar named Patricia Pearson, entitled When She Was Bad: Violent Women and the Myth of Innocence. Mind you, this book was written long before 9/11 and was not written directly about the muslim world. Nevertheless, amongst the many, many studies Pearson cites on female violence--which is far more common than most people wish to acknowledge, by the way--you will find a startling revelation:

In the vast majority of "honor killings" in the muslim world, the killing is done at the direct behest of a man's mother or wife.

Not "with her support." At her behest. Because she demanded that he do it.

Unfortunately, getting most people to wrap their heads around all of that, or the fact that these killings are often done with the full expectation that the man might well be jailed while the woman who ordered it remains blameless, is extremely difficult.

How do you address such a complex phenomenon? Or is merely condemning it enough?

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Eric Scheie (www):
Enforcement of such cultural practices never happen without the cooperation and encouragement of both sexes. Female genital mutilation is usually performed by women -- on women.

Consider also the phenomenon of bride burnings in India:
The dowry related violence is not only inflicted by husband alone but the entire family of the husband participates in it. The mother- in-law in particular, emerges as a dominating figure in violence and harassment of the daughter-in-law. In majority of the cases the husband and the mother- in-law of the victim play a leading role in planning against and executing the bride.
What bothers me the most about these dreadful practices is not their enforcement by women, but their tacit encouragement in the West by modern "multiculturalism." Ignoring the problems exacerbate them, which makes feminist indifference especially shocking to me.

Thanks for the link!
3.9.2005 8:41am
caltechgirl (www):
Perhaps the participation of women in these rites is considered by western feminists to be the ultimate in equality, ie that women are only truly equal to men when they become capable of opression and violence towards other women.

However, it's much more likely that because women participate in female circumcision and honor killing, feminists are confused about what to say. Is it opression when we do it alone? How do we change an entire culture so that women don't feel that they have to protect themselves by killing or maiming other women? These are questions that are far too serious for what has become (for most) a dilettante movement at best.

On a more personal note, it's really interesting the differences between cultures that live side by side. In an Armenian family, the boy who potentially disgraced a daughter would be hunted down and punished, while the girl would be protected and cared for, regardless of her culpability. She might be isolated and shunned within the family if she was responsible for her trouble, and essentially placed under house arrest, but that would pass, and she would eventually be allowed to live a more normal life. The difference in cultural attitudes is striking. In that culture, not taking care of your family is a bigger disgrace than a shamed daughter.
3.9.2005 9:19am
Jeff Licquia (mail) (www):
After the Western feminist treatment of Paula Jones, no one should be surprised at their lack of conviction about anything.

This is one of the fallacies regarding modern cultural attitudes. Certainly, we shouldn't go around destroying other cultures for fun, but some cultural differences need to be destroyed. This one seems like a prime candidate.

How? Couldn't tell you that. But I think opening Muslim societies will help quite a bit. While ordering your own daughter's death must be quite a rush, I'm sure most women would gladly give up that right for, say, the right to drive oneself to the store and walk around openly, were they given the choice.
3.9.2005 1:41pm
John_B (mail) (www):
I'd like to note that both honor killing and female circumcision are cultural practices, not bound by any one religion. Female genital mutilation is widespread in Africa, in areas that are non-Muslim as well as Muslim. In the Muslim areas, though, it has achieved a color of religion for justification, as do many practices in many regions, for many religions.

Similarly, honor-killings are conducted by non-Muslim in many places. We make a Muslim connection because we see stories about Muslims engaged in them. We do not see--for lack of reporting, not lack of fact--the honor killings that go on daily in India, among Hindu families. The only difference there is that both boy and girls are killed by their families for bringing shame upon them. Nor do we read of honor killings committed, in the Middle East, by Christians, for the same cultural excuses that their Muslim neighors make.

We also tend to forget that the entire concept of "honor killing" entered the American consciousness by way of Sicily and the Mafia. Neither are particularly noted as hotbeds of Islamic fundamentalism.
3.9.2005 2:37pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
Dean and Eric both make excellent points. The whole "gender-feminist" paradigm of Big Bad Oppressive Male vs. Innocent Female Victim is totally wrong. The sexes are different in their styles but equal in their goodness or badness. I oppose and condemn, hate and loathe, female genital nutilation, so-called "honor" murders, and any other such avominations.

I also totally agree with Eric in opposing all this Politically Correct sp-called "multiculturalism" that is destroying our culture (and is designed to destroy our culture). I have had it with these idiots who say: "Hey! Some of my best friends are Muslims, so don't you dare condemn the criminal behavior of any Muslims, you bigot!" That's exactly like saying: "Hey! Some of my best friends are Germans, so don't you dare condemn the Holocaust, you bigot!"*

If standing up for Western values makes me a "bigot", then so be it. I don't give a damn about being called a "bigot" any more. The term is meaningless now, if it ever had much meaning in the first place. I'm proud of our Western culture, and of the greatest nation of the West, i.e., the United States of America, and, yes, I damn well do believe that our culture is superior to any other on this planet. I'm a Politically Incorrect Western Imperialist Zionist Warmonger -- proudly.

(*And, by the way, as I've said before, "Godwin's Law" is a crock.)
3.9.2005 2:41pm
Jerome du Bois (mail) (www):
Dean:

Phyllis Chesler's Women's Inhumanity To Women is also instructive in showing us the multiculturalism of cruelty.

But the forthcoming Sheik's New Clothes ought to blow the lid off the sexual perversions Islam encourages and perpetuates.

John_B, I have a question: Is religion supposed to change behavior? If so, in what direction? As far as I'm concerned, if FGM and dishonorable family murder occur in the vicinity of Islam or Hinduism or Jainism or Christianity or any damn religion, what good is the religion if it doesn't do something to STOP the practice? Yet they flourish side by side. To say that these depredations have nothing to do with Islam doesn't say much good for Islam, does it?

And I sign off side by side on Steven Malcolm Anderson's third paragraph. The West Is The Best.

JdB
3.10.2005 2:40am
John_B (mail) (www):
The role of religion, I believe, extends exactly as far as the practitioners of that religion will permit it to go.

Abortion, in Catholic orthodoxy, is murder. But the majority of American Catholics support at least some forms of abortion. What's the Church doing about that? What should it be doing about that?

Islam raises particular difficulties in that there is no hierarchy that establishes orthodoxy. There's no "pope" to say, "No, this is absolutely forbidden." But then, you get back to how people practice their religions in their daily lives.

The Ten Commandments lay out a set of rules that the followers of at least two major religions recognize. Clearly, the religions have no way of enforcing those commandments.
3.10.2005 11:52am
mariner:
"Men of course kill each other over such things in all sorts of cultures. But what Eric's talking about here is the specific, fairly widespread, practice of a man--usually a husband or father--killing a wife or daughter for besmirching the family honor. This brutal practice ..."

What jumped off the screen to me was the blatant sexism here.

Men of course kill each other all the time and that's just how things are.

But when a man kills a WOMAN that's "brutal".

It's not very often I see such an anti-male double standard defended, but here it is.
3.11.2005 9:00pm
Dean Esmay (www):
Get a grip. I'm as much a masculist as you are.

It's simply reality--men do kill each other over such things all the time. What's sexist is that people choose not to notice it.

It of course should disturb us that men are far more likely to die violently than women are. It should also disturb us that women are much more likely to get away with violent behavior than men are. It is, however, reality.
3.11.2005 9:17pm