The Genesis of Rights
Dean
At one time, I considered myself a socialist. At some point in my youth, I came to reject that and, in reaction, for a brief while, I considered myself a radical libertarian.
After a while I settled down and, to make a long story short, in the wake of 9/11 I came to the conclusion that what I am is a liberal democrat and a conservative republican--and a bit of a rational anarchist perhaps, but only around the edges.
I bring this up because I often get into arguments with socialists, marxists, anarchists, hard-core libertarians, and Ayn Rand-style objectivists and their fellow travellers. I tend to annoy all such people because, while I often agree with some of what they say, at root I radically disagree with most of them.
In one of their better books, Lucifer's Hammer, Jerry Pournelle & Larry Niven discuss a hypothetical future in which a meteor strike wipes out most of human civilization, and the aftermath for those who survive. It's a very good book that works on multiple levels, both as a terrifically gripping story and as a great rumination on the nature of civilization, with a lot of thought-provoking philosophy mixed in when you aren't looking (i.e. it's there but it's not intrusive).
Part of the story involves a small community of American survivors who've banded together under the leadership of an old politician, who in effect becomes both their mayor and their judge in legal disputes--i.e. a quasi-dictator, followed by general consensus because he's the only one who seems capable of maintaining order and ensuring that their small community will survive the harsh winters. The old man takes a tight grip, and often does some pretty tough things to make sure that as many people as possible survive. At one point he gets into an argument with someone who starts angrily yelling that the politician is violating his rights, and the old man lays out what is one of the most devastating rejoinders I've ever seen:
"You only have any rights because the rest of us pretty much agree that you have them."
That's a paraphrase as I don't have the book handy, but it's close enough. It's a line that's always stuck with me and, while I didn't like it at all the first time I read it, the more time's gone on the more accurate I've found it.
America was founded on an idea known as "natural rights," at least as part of our founding myth. In truth not all the Founders believed in the concept, but most went along with the general idea. This concept of "natural rights" is helpful as a frame of reference, but really, it's nothing but an intellectual tool. It's a good way of getting people into the spirit of protecting each others' rights, but ultimatey it's nothing but sentiment.
Thomas Jefferson wrote these words, and they are quite apt:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
As a matter of faith some may cleave to the notion that their rights come "ultimately" from God or some other higher source, or perhaps from an elaborately worked out system of rationalization. But as a matter of pragmatism that is all superfluous; unless you believe that your Creator is going to take a direct hand in everyday affairs for you, you are utterly dependent upon our fellow men to protect your rights. To get your fellow men to do that, you're going to have to get most of them to agree on what your rights are or, failing that, get them to agree that the system of government which protects those rights should be obeyed--which is six of the one and half a dozen of the other.
Go on, try to get around it. Quote the Magna Carta at me; I don't care. Quote Ayn Rand for me; I still don't care. Quote Karl Marx or Rousseau for me; then I definitely don't care. Indeed, take any political philosopher who has written at length about any of these issues, and consider: it only takes enough of us who say, "that's a crock!" to expose any such intellectual edifices as castles made of sand.
Your rights do not exist unless your fellow men agree that they exist. You and I will live with that. Regardless of how we feel about it, it is empirical reality.
This is why I have come to the conclusion that liberal democracy within a constitutional republic is the most reliable protection for human rights that mankind has created to date. It is also why, as time goes on, I have little patience with radical libertarians, monarchists, objectivists, marxists, socialists, anarchists, old-school conservatives, theocrats, or anybody else who claims that constitutional republicanism informed by liberal democracy (or what some might call "bourgeois parliamentarianism") is irrelevant or pernicious.
Honestly, I think that most such people are guilty of taking a sledgehammer to the very soapbox upon which they stand.
Discuss.
Related Posts (on one page):
- More On The Genesis Of Rights
- The Genesis of Rights
- Are You A Liberal? (Rerun)
The accused in the book was, indeed, hoarding - and he as a member of that survival community had agreed to the rules, which included reporting all found items for distribution as best determined for the needs of the whole group. Justice was rough and ready, but it was justice.
For those of us who are convinced that our rights are endowed by our Creator, there is no inconsistency here. I have an absolute right to my life, my property, my opinions, etc - I am, as an individual, free to protect those rights by any means necessary. However, it is in my interest to band together with my fellow human beings because this allows a collective protection to my rights - I can't, in the end, fight off a thousand, but a hundred thousand has an easy time fighting off that thousand. In joining the human community, I agree to an attenuation of my absolute rights but I do not surrender my rights - they are inalienable to me; they go where I go.
Of course, people may act unjustly - someone may come into my home tonight and steal my property and/or kill me, thus violating my property and life rights. But the act of taking away my property and my life does not deny the fact that I have a right to my property and my life. In order to discourage such violations of my rights, the thing we do as a collective agency is to violate the rights of the violators. You steal from me, we take away your freedom of movement; you kill me, we execute you (or punish with severe incarceration) - it might seem illogical to punish a violation with another violation, but in 4,000 years of human history, we haven't been able to devise a better method. Maybe some day we shall, but I don't look for that this side of The End.
You are putting the cart a bit before the horse here, in my view; saying that because we are all, in a society, dependent upon the actions of others to protect our rights that our rights are necessarily at the mercy of the group. It actually worked the other way around - as human beings arose out of propertyless, anonymous barbarism, systems were developed to protect the property and individual rights of the human being. The acknowledgement of our rights preceeded and necessitated the establishment of collective human institutions to protect same. That such protection was highly imperfect, and much honored in the breech, does not change the ultimate fact of life - your rights came first, collective action regarding such rights only came after. Think of it like this - no one said "you have this land to farm", and thus agriculture was born...no, we started farming first, and only then started to regulate how a particular piece of land, and the fruits thereof, were the property of the person who worked (owned) it.
Governments are instituted among men to secure rights - securing things men already have, and would have even if government wasn't around to secure them.
Some others will tell you, on the other hand, that any time the state levies a tax, that is a violation of your rights. That taxation in and of itself is a human rights violation, as is any form of wealth redistribution.
Who or what is your ultimate authority on such things?
If there is disagreement, who arbitrates?
Guess what? It's down to your fellow human beings no matter what you do.
The Founding Father's believed this to their core. And if you notice they didn't say every right was endowed by the Creator, but certain rights did. Meaning, no government or people (or group of people) could ever take them away. They're apart of the human condition. Sure, they could choose to ignore them but that doesn't mean they're any less apart of that condition.
I'm unsurprised that you, as an atheist, would say, "But as a matter of pragmatism that is all superfluous; unless you believe that your Creator is going to take a direct hand in everyday affairs for you, you are utterly dependent upon our fellow man to protect your rights." You have to believe that because you have no other explanation to fall back on. For you rights must come from men. Since there is no authority beyond man there can be no rights universal to all men. That kind of thinking leads to moral relativism, something I utterly reject.
Jefferson wrote what he meant and meant what he wrote.
You can say that I only think this way because I'm a Christian, and there may be some truth in this, but I choose to take the Founding Fathers' at their word and not turn those words into some kind of allegorical philosophy for which they never subscribed to but you do.
Weird, but wonderful, in our own human sort of way.
I didn't understand Dean to say that our rights come from man, but that we must look to our fellow man to set up a system to protect those rights for each other.
To me there is one real "right" that is simply associated with being alive, and that is the right to own your life and attempt to continue in that state. Any other "rights" flow from that. Since it's easy for someone else to use force and hurt you, kill you, take what's yours, etc., on some level it's not much of a right, but it's what gives us self-defense as the ultimate and perhaps only "natural" right. It's just nature.
Ultimately it's the only one that matters. There can be no other rights without exercising that one, both individually and by joining with other sufficiently like-minded people.
I agree with Kevin and Mark. To some extent, your Pournelle quote sounds suspiciously like that of Chairman Mao: All power flows from the barrel of a gun.
Gee. That didn't take long to get around.
The problem with the abandonment of natural rights is you will eventually abandon liberty and freedom. Once you say that other people grant your rights by consensus, that says they can also take them away. And when freedom becomes too costly, they will.
I think it's part of the joke God plays on unbelievers. Liberty and thus the dignity that only comes from being a free people is only possible in a theistic system. Once it's consensus, the consensus can go the other way. You abandon God and God abandons you to the mercy of your fellow men. And Sartre had some things to say about that in Huit Clos.
Really all Dean is doing is arguing the social contract origin of rights (or justice). If anything, Dean is quoting Rosseau/Rawls. That Mao is a fellow traveler to this philosophy only shows that Mao wasn't wrong about everything, just most things.
Also let me second the opinion that Lucifer's Hammer is a great book as are all Niven/Pournelle collaborations I've read.
Dean: I love the combination of science fiction and political science.
If one is going to assert that rights come from God, I would like to see that backed up by God making that claim (in some signficant religious text). If you want to argue for a religious origin for a concept, it's critical to show the religious document that promulgates the concept.
From my perspective, the idea of natural rights comes from a document penned by a borderline atheist (Jefferson). Perhaps for that reason, I've never taken the Declaration of Independence as being inspired by God. Seeing how the the Declaration hasn't been canonized, it's not a good source from which to argue that God has endowed mankind with inalienable rights.
A longer discussion of my point is here.
But if rights don't exist until the people I live among agree I should have them, what's the point of groups like Amnesty International complaining when people's rights are being violated? How can they complain rights are being violated, when according to you, they have no rights because they live in a society that does not affirm those rights exist? Or did I miss something?
You want to say that God is the source of all rights? Fine. So what?
And that's without even getting into the epistemological question of how we know what rights God grants us, or how those rights are to be interpretted. In my view, the assertion that God is the source of rights is meaningless and does no analytical work. It contributes nothing to a substantive debate on rights, and should be abandoned.
Which isn't to say necessarily that it's false (though, as an atheist, I obviously believe that it is). But even if it is true, it adds nothing to the debate.
Amnesty International is attempting to extend their social contract to other groups of people. Which is generally fine by me as it's more or less the US social contract and I'll happily say that the US social contract is superior to anything else going.
Note that Amnesty International has no real power to stop the perceived rights violations, thus they can't enforce the Amnesty International social contract, and thus their claims are not enforced (indicating a lack of rights).
Okay, let's go over this again.
If natural rights come from God, then they can't be taken away. That's what the concept adds to the debate.
Natural rights are neither granted by others, nor can be taken away by others. That puts the entire discussion of rights in a different plane, one in which each debater [even the master debaters] has a lot more humility.
Without that humility, anything's possible. The social contract can be adjusted according to the general will, and you end up with a rigid culture such as France which explodes periodically, except when subsumed into an Anglo-American construct. Or worse, you end up with something like Marxism.
Inalienable natural rights, including life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happines, coming from God are the whole ballgame. Without them, the culture is doomed and subject to natural laws of futility, one of which is "No God equals No freedom."
I'm a God fearing Southern Baptist, but where in the Bible does it say anything about natural rights? Yes, there are laws. Yes, there are admonitions as to how we should act towards each other. And yes, these are excellent principles on which to base man's laws.
But where in the Bible does the subject of rights even come up? If we were truly endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, then surely someone would've written about them in the Bible.
A link to a a text search of the Bible is here.
"Right" only comes up in the sense of righteousness, correctness, and as the opposite of the direction "Left"
But if you want a Christian answer, I'd suggest that practically the whole Bible, especially the New Testament, supports the concept of natural rights thematically.
Here's one verse:
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:12
Plus the one where Paul talks about there being no Jew, no Gentile, no slave nor free,but all being in Christ. It's somewhere in there.
But the social contract can be adjusted according to the general will. God doesn't (won't? can't?) stop it, as the examples you enumerate prove. The existence of natural rights is thereby disproven.
We only have natural rights to the extent that everyone agrees that we have natural rights, and to the extent that these rights are respected by those in power. To say that those who lived in, say, Saddam's Iraq really have the same natural rights that Westerners do is meaningless sophistry.
I dunno, resting the whole of your civilization on an undecidable proposition such as the existence of a Creator seems pretty iffy to me.
Since there is no authority beyond man there can be no rights universal to all men. That kind of thinking leads to moral relativism, something I utterly reject.
This fallacy is what I call an "argument from undesirable consequences." If you were to say, "If a ginormous asteroid were to hit Earth, we would all die, therefore there is no such asteroid," we'd all laugh -- it's obvious that, while an asteroid may or may not be headed for Earth to wipe out all life, its existence is in no way predicated on the destruction it would cause. Similarly, the existence or non-existence of God, and thus the natural rights he might hypothetically grant, is not predicated on how utterly you reject moral relativity.
However that conclusion seems to be the logical equivalent of "might makes right". Thus Hitler, Stalin, Moussolini, Mao, Saddam, Gaddafi, Arafat, Kim Jung-Il, et al weren't/aren't tyrants, just leaders of different societies. Communism didn't kill millions, it just redistributed resources for the common good.
"I'm unsurprised that you, as an atheist, would say, 'But as a matter of pragmatism that is all superfluous; unless you believe that your Creator is going to take a direct hand in everyday affairs for you, you are utterly dependent upon our fellow man to protect your rights.' You have to believe that because you have no other explanation to fall back on. For you rights must come from men. Since there is no authority beyond man there can be no rights universal to all men. That kind of thinking leads to moral relativism, something I utterly reject."
Such a comfort to know that Christians can caricature atheism as easily, if less frequently, as atheists caricature Christians.
I have no objection to your (or IB Bill's) believing that God is the ultimate bestower of rights, but you have to acknowledge that it depends on a whole truckload of non-falsifiables. If people live under outrageously repressive regimes, that doesn't prove that God hasn't provided them with rights that He's going to back up, it just proves that God's plan is mysterious...or that He set the ball in motion millenia ago and is letting us mortals run with it without interference...or that this life is just the dress rehearsal for the real thing...or whatever.
I realize that not every Christian would reach for every one of those explanations. My point is just that religious people do plenty of falling back on "God's plan is beyond our understanding" themselves. Not to say that they shouldn't; it's the essence of faith to believe in what you can't prove. And there are surely people in prison somewhere in a police state who take great comfort in believing that God thinks they're there unjustly and that they have a legitimate cosmic claim to liberty. But it doesn't change the fact that people are able to keep them in prison.
No no no. The social contract still exists. Tyranny still exists. The point is that underlying the social contract or tyrannical regimes lies fundamental rights, called natural rights. The fact that others may violate those rights, even for centuries, doesn't change the fact they exist. Nothing is disproven.
I dunno, resting the whole of your civilization on an undecidable proposition such as the existence of a Creator seems pretty iffy to me.
I agree. It's damned iffy. But we in America have been doing pretty well since 1776 by taking as our founding principle the brilliant exposition of natural rights by Thomas Jefferson: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator by certain inalienable rights ...
Still stirs the heart, doesn't it? That's because it's not just sentiment, but the truth.
But you're right. It's an iffy proposition. But if we stick to it, we'll be around for another 225 years and continue to spread freedom and liberty. If we think we're too smart for natural rights, then all bets are off.
A truckload of non-falsiables? Well, made one of them rice-burning pickups mebbe* ...
* Full disclosure: I own a Nissan.
So Dean's statement boils down to a statement that ethics is a social construct.
Now, as a theist, such argumentation warms my little debating heart, given that atheists have been charged with corrupting morality since the dawn of recorded history, and have vehemently denied it the whole time. Unfortunately, I don't think it's true.
Want an example? OK, let's consider a moral duty to kill every 5-year old child in your city. Now, justify that moral duty.
Go on. Try it. Try really hard to convince yourself that this is a good thing.
Having difficulty overcoming your revulsion? Tell me, again, how that revulsion isn't real, especially when the overwhelming majority of people in the world feel similar revulsion.
Now, saying that ethics has a basis outside of social convention is not saying that a particular moral system has such a basis. Indeed, I'm sure that some people, confronted with the task above, imagined a world with a painful plague that only affected 5-year-olds, or some other factual basis that blunted the moral force of their revulsion. All that means is that ethics is difficult, and often involves non-rational means of persuasion.
But if you want to deny the existence of everything that's non-rational, then say goodbye to whole chunks--problably the entirety--of the pleasant parts of life.
Which isn't to say that the anarcho-capitalist-libertarian-marxist bloc is right. I think liberal democracy is in fact the right way to go about things.
But consider: if ethics were really that arbitrary, how could any group of people come up with a shared set of values under which to live by, unless some autocrat imposed them? So I think liberal democracy proves the existence of objective ethics, rather than obviates the need for them.
Of course, as the participants in the conversation become even demi-cognizant of this, the conversation will tend to veer in the direction of a debate over "A", that is, a debate over whether Dean Esmay's (nontheistic) view of the world is, by and large, correct or not— as the comments in this thread so far abundantly bear out. All the usual suspects have shown up, voicing all their usual positions.
None of which really contributes toward establishing why a person should feel compelled to say "A". Especially if that person already strongly demurs from saying "B", in which case Burnham's Second Law may be taken as tantamount to a reductio ad absurdum.
Though the argument will rage back and forth, won't it? With all the usual suspects, and all the usual "heard it once, heard it a hundred times" lines of argumentation. :)
Of course, you already long since know where I'm coming from on this one, don't you? To build upon Sean's felicitous turn of phrase above, I traffic shamelessly in non-falsifiables by the boxcarload. Therefore I am not driven in the least to assert anything even remotely resembling Chairman Mao's dictum that "truth grows out of the barrel of a gun."
Yes, they exist and those standards have been chosen by different groups of men. Ideally these standards should be inspired by God, but this need not be the case.
However, just because the concept of property rights in the US could be extended to Zimbawbwe, and US citizens are rightly appalled by the actions of Mugabe seizing farms, it doesn't mean that the Zimbawbweans have actual property rights.
(*YHVH, the Holy Trinity, Gott, Dieu, Theos, Deus, Divus, Jovis Pater, Zeus, Tiwaz....)
"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."
-Justice William O. Douglas
Now, you may take the position that the wise philosophers such as Dean know that this is really poppycock, and that belief in God-given individual rights is but a useful illusion for us superstitious fools. Nevertheless, on such a premise, if you wish to continue to be free to philosophize and to otherwise enjoy your life, liberty, property, and pursuit of happiness, then you would do well to maintain that useful illusion of your inalienable God-given rights in the minds of us superstitious fools, who constitute the majority of voters and soldiers in America and on whom, by your own statement, your rights depend. If you do otherwise, if you publicly argue that there is no God, that you have no rights, that might is right, that anything goes if you have a big enough mob, and if you succeed in convincing the majority that that is the case, then they might take you up on that and act accordingly.
That was the position of Leo Strauss, another interesting philosopher who has had a lot of influence among a number of important conservatives, including in our government today. The radical Leftists often complain today of the Evil Straussian Neo-Con Zionist Western Imperialist Conspiracy.
Fortunately the benefits of many rights are self-evident enough that it matters little in practice whether they are natural or not. It's angels pin-head-dancing.
Jody, What if we were talking about Zimbabweans being slaughtered by their government? Would you say that Zimbabweans don't have actual living rights?
I guess you are defining rights as what people actually get and I am defining them as what people inherently deserve simply be virtue of being human beings. I acknowledge both things exist, so I guess we only disagree over which concept deserves the term rights.
I didn't see your reference to James Burnham until after I posted my own comment. Burnham was another profound philosopher. While I have his Suicide of the West, I have also read a book of his with an opposite title, The Coming Defeat of Communism, in which he prophesied (back in the 1950s): "The defeat of Communism is inevitable because enough determined men in the world, and their number daily grows, have so resolved."
"All roads to Freedom lie through Communism's defeat."
-Verne Paul Kaub
I must note again that the overwhelming majority of that daily-growing number of men and women such as President Ronald Reagan who resolved to defeat Communism were devout theists, devout believers in that "useful illusion" of the God-given inalienable rights of the individual.
Ultimately you're arguing what is righteous (and I concur with your assessment of what is righteous), and I'm arguing the legal definition of a right "a claim, on other persons, that is acknowledged and reciprocated among the principals associated with that claim."
"Fortunately the benefits of many rights are self-evident enough that it matters little in practice whether they are natural or not. It's angels pin-head-dancing."
A little historical perspective is necessary here. Moderns like to scoff at the medieval Catholic philosophers, the Scholastics, as debating over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin (where's your cite for that, by the way?). The fact is that those self-evident benefits you speak of, i.e., the material abundance we enjoy under our system of private property rights (capitalism) did not become so self-evident until after those rights had been established in culture and law, which in turn derived from the natural rights philosophies of men such as John Locke, who in turn derived their concepts from the natural law philosophy of those very same Catholic Scholastic philosophers (such as John of Salisbury and Thomas Aquinas) who you make fun of.
You are living upon the moral capital of the ages.
:)
As for whether accepting that my premise puts me in league with Maoism and other mass-murderers: hardly.
As it happens, I agree with Jeff Liquia's position that much of what we consider right and wrong flows from instinct. I happen to believe it's evolution that gives us most of those instincts, but I have no urge to quarrel with people who say God built that into us.
I note, however, that most of what we consider "rights" are things which would have been alien to most religious believers--including most Christians--500, 1,000, 1,500, or 2,000 years ago. Indeed, some of the things that we hold now to be "rights" were anathema to Christian, Jewish, and other religious thinking until quite recently in human history. That includes the right of free speech, the right of free press, and even the right to be secure in your person or property, which were not generally recognized anywhere in Christendom until at least the Magna Carta.
Please note that by saying so I am not attacking religious people at all. It's very clear to me that, in fact, religious thinkers should be credited with developing the concepts of many of the rights we hold dear today. But those developed over centuries of debate, and no small amount of bloodshed, before we managed to start finding systems of rights which would avoid said bloodshed and bring about order without excessive tyranny.
Rights as I see it flow ultimately from consensual government and constitutional authority. Which is why the comparison to Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. simply does not apply. These men did not live in societies with Constitutitions which enumerated rights, curtailed and distributed power, and which relied on free, fair, and open elections with secret ballots in order to come to power (please, don't even try to point to Hitler--he wasn't elected with anything close to a majority and, once in power, he completely dismantled the last vestiges of the democratic order in very short order and declared "liberalism," i.e. democratic order and constitutional republicanism, a failed experiment).
In 10,000 years of recorded human history it has been a long slow climb up from barbarism and authoritarianism to rise to where we are now. Have we attained the best of all possible worlds? Certainly not. But we have a system which has created (okay, "recognized") more rights and more freedoms than any in history. And I don't just include the U.S. in that but all the world's true liberal democracies: Canada, Japan, the UK, Australia, most of Europe, today's South Africa, Brazil... you know who I'm talking about.
Put it to you this way: if my formulation is correct, what it means is that educating people on their rights and their duty to protect not just their own but each others' is paramount. You don't just send them to Sunday School and hope they soak it up because let me tell you: look at the entire history of faith, and recognition of the right of free speech seriously didn't even exist through most of it, and property rights were sketchy at best.
As for the theists among you who claim that "rights" flow from God: I'll repeat the challenge that you show me where in the Bible those rights are enumerated. If you can't, then I must note that you are hoist with your own petard: for any right to be recognized at all, you have to find it by extrapolation and debate with your fellow man.
Which is why I say this is six of one and a half dozen of the other: even if you are correct that God is the source of all your "rights," it appears that we are awfully dependent upon our fellow man to agree on what God says on the matter--and throughout most of human history, most God-fearing men have failed to recognize many of the rights we hold dear today, and some would have considered them an affront to God.
Free speech: You mean that protects heresy?
Free religion: You mean that we have to put up with those who deny God, or say God is a giant kumquat?
Free press: You mean people should be able to criticize the King, whom God has given authority over us?
To even say such rights flow from God you must assert that throughout almost all of history the vast majority of Christians have utterly failed to recognize most of those rights.
Everyone has natural rights. What is at issue is the consequences of exercising those rights. The difference between justice and law is that justice is served when society honors those natural rights. The law can be manipulated to serve justice, or to thwart justice.
That is why I have always maintained that excessive deference to the Law is not desirable. It is a commitment to justice that is of paramount importance. When the law supports justice, we should support the law. When the law thwarts justice, we are compelled to disobey it.
The perversion in our system is the oxymoronic term of "social justice." All justice is individual. So-called "Social Justice" which obliterates the individual in favor of class membership perverts the very meaning of justice.
Finally, Justice is absolute. No one can change justice any more than they can change natural rights. The best we can do is to attempt to conform our society to the pursuit of Justice. And with humans involved, that is never going to be a perfect endeavor.
"I posted while Sean did; as usual, Sean made his point well, even though he's up a little late.
A truckload of non-falsiables? Well, made one of them rice-burning pickups mebbe* ...
* Full disclosure: I own a Nissan."
Why, thanks, Bill. I sometimes read blogs late into the night to help me drive away pure thoughts.
And at least you're not carrying your non-falsifiables around in a Mitsubishi truck. I'd hate to see what could happen if your clutch housing cracked.
So it is with every group larger than the individual. Every group that really exists, in any case. So we make mistakes when we use the blunt hammer of class membership. It is better in many cases than doing nothing at all.
Glad someone noticed that in Hammer.
Thanks
J
But just in case anyone was wondering, last I heard from Dr. Pournelle, he was still a devout Christian.
Far be it from me to quibble with Pournelle - I did skip ahead to that chapter, and maybe I went past it; but I think that the basic idea is understood as far as the debate goes.
As for citing the Bible for our rights - Galations 5:1 seems to cover the fact that we are free beings, capable of exercising our own will: "Stand fast, and do not be caught again under the yoke of slavery"; meanwhile, the 7th Commandment, prohibiting theft, is a clear implication of the right to own property (you can't steal what isn't owned, right?), while the 5th Commandment would be a strong indication of a right to life. As for me, it is clearly consistent with basic Biblical teaching that the fundamental rigths of man are endowed by God, directly, through His revelation to the world.
The imperfections in the security of our rights over the ages does not, in my view, mean that these rights didn't exist until someone thought them up - in my view, a reading of history indicates a continual human discovery of what is a human right. We once upon a time looked with equanimity upon slavery, but then discovered (in the Bible, no less) that holding another child of God in bondage was a reprehensible act, violating basic human rights.
You are, on the other hand, entirely correct that there is a lot of absurdity being asserted as basic human rights these days - such as a "right" to healthcare or education. For such there is no warrant in history, theology or philosophy - nor in practicality; a right, to be a right, must be something a human being can tend to do for himself...I guess its possible for an illiterate person to educate himself up to a doctorate, but its unlikely....and I'd like to see someone perform an apendectomy on themselves.
Note too that that right to be secure from search &seizure without due process is much, much stronger by U.S. tradition than most other parts of the world. Even in the liberal democracies like the UK, such things are much more lax, with many things we would consider trespassing or an unforgivable lapse by the state being perfectly normal, such as police being allowed to enter someone's dwelling any time they are even mildly suspicious of illegal activity.
So I would then note that many every day rights have been not enumerated in the Constitution but rather "discovered" by the courts. The courts discovered, for example, that freedom of the press applies to broadcast news organizations, and also discovered that people have a right to privacy that makes abortion something the government must not meddle with...
Which, you must admit, to a lot of us simply looks like "rights" are human processes, not divine ones.
I think you've confused Scott Harris with Arnold Harris. Scott Harris is a devout Christian, even though as yet only a Protestant from what I gather. Anyway, I totally agree with him here. The problem with you is that you keep sawing off the branch you're sitting on with your atheistical arguments. You keep talking about the best form of government (Constitutional republic or democracy or what have you, checks and balances, Bill of Rights, etc.) to protect our rights, but you still have not begun to address the question of what is to be the foundation of those rights and that government, the foundation of the defense of those rights and that government.
The cold, hard fact is that, as of 9/11/2001, we are at War for the very survival of our freedoms and our civilization. And, as has been noted, it is not the professor, the protester, the poet, or even the blogger who protects that freedom, but the soldier.
Long ago, back in the darkest days of the Cold War, Whittaker Chambers observed that we men and women of the West are in need of 2 things with which to fight our enemies: a reason to live and a reason to die. For what will men risk their lives on a battlefield? Men will not die for sociobiological evolutionary theories, nor for utilitarian calculations of the greatest per capita income for the greatest number, nor even for Ayn Rand's vision of man, but only for the elemental things that the "sophisticates" ("men without chests" as C. S. Lewis called them) scoff at: "....the ashes of their fathers and the temples of their Gods...."
Is it any accident that it was in the midst of a national religious revival and under a devoutly religious President that we finally brought down Communism? Is it any accident that the thinking of Leo Strauss, who addressed these questions, is now being studied in the halls of the Pentagon? The rest of Europe has the proper forms of government, but they are weakening in their resolve in this War because they are losing the indispensible foundations of freedom which our own Founding Fathers, most notably George Washington in his famous Farewell Address, identified: morality (absolute values, not relativism) and religion (theism, not atheism). We must get back to those foundations. You do ill to your own cause when you undermine those foundations.
If you believe that your rights come from a consensus of the majority, then, by your own premises, you do ill when you undermine the faith of that majority, the faith in your and my God-given inalienable rights, that alone protects your freedom to express your disagreement with that faith.
Good point - but wouldn't our protections against search and seizure actually be a means to protect our property rather than an end in themselves? I'd put it that because my property rights are sacred, you (as the State) may not come upon my property without my permission, unless you have a properly executed warrant to search my premises for evidence that I have violated the rights of another.
Taking a look at the Bill of Rights, doesn't it seem to be that the Founders used ten things to protect three things? Boiled down, the Bill of Rights protects my property, my life and my right to believe what I wish (and, as an addendum, talk about all three things).
The Genesis of Rights (I do find that an intriguing phrase) is the fundamental recognition of Evil. I have linked to my thoughts on this before and shall refrain from doing so here; however, it is my contention that Morality, Rights and their related philosophies we refer to as Law all spring from a single primitive understanding- that one does not desire to be harmed by another. Being a creature of thought and reflection it would seem inevitable that Man would then devise ways by which he could protect himself from harm, the single most effective method being to band together with like minded fellows, each dependant upon the other for the prevention of personal harm. Individually they are weak, united they are less so.
This choice to find security in groups is the basis for tribes, clans, nations and faiths. Some of these groups were formed by mutual consent, many were created by those driven to subjugate all surrounding them, but each iteration of the theme constitutes a step of learning. In those steps human beings did learn that certain types of groups were more conducive to their desires than others. Some of those arrangements were vulnerable to decadence and demagoguery, others proved over time to be more resilient. Within those resilient associations of individuals were formed the notions of primitive desires for self-preservation as Rights, those Rights being formulated as a method of better describing and understanding the social compact and dynamic of the group.
Note that none of this requires the intervention of a Supreme Being. It is all quite easily described in terms of self-interest. Those who insist it is impossible for such notions to be derived from the mind of Man are giving short shrift to humanity.
That all being said, I have no easy time with atheists. In fact it is my contention that most atheists are not atheists by the strictest definition of the term. Honest atheists must admit that the notion of there being no God of any kind is not provable. Steven den Beste described it succinctly and I shall paraphrase him here:
There is a workable description of a supreme being as one who created the universe by whatever means and in whatever manner (we shall not force this being to conform to any time table or mythos), and upon completing this task is now either uninterested in its workings, or incapable of intervening therein.
This is another non-falsifiable in that there is no method known to science or philosophy to disprove it. Whether one is an aficionado of the Big Bang or is inclined towards the Steady State model of the Universe, or any of the many other models devised by thinking creatures to describe what is our objective reality including the metaphorical Genesis, this notion of God the Indifferent allows any of these to exist without contradiction. There is no point at which one can say that observable phenomenon disprove the theory that God is unable or uninterested in affecting the outcome of any particular event, be it social, personal or inanimate.
Atheists who dismiss this as foolishness are then guilty of faith, for they blind themselves to rational arguments that might force them to admit of the possibility of being wrong. Most of the extraordinarily militant atheists one encounters fall in to this particular group. Those who admit of this single flaw in the cannon of disbelief seem far more comfortable in their position and less driven to proselytize. A true Atheist is not threatened by the belief of others.
In the final analysis, this discussion is fairly unimportant in anything other than a purely philosophical sense. Rights are meaningless if they are undefended. If they can be rendered meaningless they are in fact ephemeral. To claim that Rights exist outside the framework of an enforceable social compact lends them no special power. Those who lack certain Rights in this modern world may certainly aspire to attain them, but that desire is driven at its most basic level by simple self-preservation and given hope by the certainty that these Rights are elsewhere extant and held in the highest regard. Their quest to attain them is understandable and even laudable, but it is driven by the nature of the human animal, and nothing else. God, if He exists, certainly holds those people dear, but belief in Him is no prerequisite for entertaining the notion that one is entitled to have her rights respected.
I believe that "rights" as we understand them are rooted in two things, and only those two things: constitutional republicanism and liberal democracy.
Tradition helps to bolster them.
They come from nowhere else, and they are sustained by nothing else.
It would not surprise me if earlier thinkers like Chambers would have rejected this notion. After all, liberal democracy was under threat around the world and in the early to mid 20th century, many found it unstable and weak. As it turns out, they were mistaken; liberald democracy has proven itself more powerful than fascism, communism, or theocracy.
Would that the likes of Whittaker Chambers had lived to see it proven so.
These rights we enjoy are the result of ten thousand years of human social experimentation (and hundreds of thousands of years of prehistory before that), making them all the more precious, for they took us a very long time to work out and, like any precious human creation, if we are not careful we could lose them.
But they are human institutions, not divine ones.
As we have seen in this thread, there are devout Christians who reject the notion of a divine origin for rights, noting themselves that there is no firm scriptural basis for this and that "rights" are a social contract between men.
I don't need anyone to tell me that God gave me freedom of speech to be ready to fight to the death for it.
If you believe that your rights come from a consensus of the majority, then, by your own premises, you do ill when you undermine the faith of that majority, the faith in your and my God-given inalienable rights, that alone protects your freedom to express your disagreement with that faith.
Let us be clear: my rights spring from Constitutional government, and the consensus support of said Constitutional governmetn.
I do not rely on 50%+1 of voters to protect my rights on a daily basis. I do rely on a majority of my fellow citizens to respect the system of government well enough that they will not abolish that system of government lightly.
But have no doubt: if a majority of citizens ever cease to support the Constitution, then we will have anarchy, civil war, or a new Constitution--and everybody's rights will be on the table once again.
In this book, he shows that our American system is founded upon the conviction that each individual man and woman was created by a God Who has endowed that man or woman with an eternal destiny, inalienable rights, and corresponding moral reponsibilities. He shows that the antithesis of this philosophy is Communism, which says that there is no God and that the individual has no rights that the state is bound to respect.
In his appendix, he quotes a little-known but crucially important decision of the United States Supreme Court, Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 1892, in which the Supreme Court, citing numerous historic documents, ruled that "this is a religious nation", indeed "a Christian nation". Dean Manion also cites preambles to the Constitutions of several states attesting to this fact, to a fundamental belief in God which is the foundation, the only foundation not made of quicksand, for our Constitutional form of government and the liberties we enjoy under that form.
This is the first Conservative book I ever read, back in my first year of high school. Every patriotic American, every Christian (Catholic or Protestant), Jew, Polytheist, or Atheist, should read this book. Every Conservative should read this book, and so should every true Liberal. And so should every Socialist or Communist if they can take time off from their efforts to tear down America. We must rebuild our America and our Western civilization, rebuild the military, political, cultural, and religious institutions of our civilization, on the foundations which Dean Manion has so brilliantly outlined.
The reason I agree with him is because in recent years, I've become very much of a political pragmatist. In other words, one of the primary questions that I ask of any political position is, "Will it achieve the desired result?" (I am not a moral pragmatist, though -- "This course of action will work" does not mean the course of action is ethical -- but that's a tangent).
And from a pragmatic perspective, if your rights won't be upheld by the people around you, you effectively don't have them. That's not the same as saying you don't have them in a moral sense, which is what I think most of you believe Dean is saying. That's not what I understood him to be saying, though -- I understood him to be coming from a very pragmatic position. He said so, in fact: "some may cleave to the notion that their rights come "ultimately" from God [...], [b]ut as a matter of pragmatism that is all superfluous."
Consider the case of a woman in a very strict Islamic society. Most of us would believe that she should have the right to many things, such as going about unveiled if she chooses to, or choosing her own husband. Indeed, most of us would say that she does have such rights, but that her society refuses to allow her to exercise them. In fact, if she attempts to exercise them, she will be killed. Now: how can you say that she has those rights in any practical sense?
Another example: I own a car. I have the right to get in my car and drive it whenever I want to, because it is my property. Now let's say someone steals my car. Have they denied me my absolute moral right to exercise control over my property? Absolutely not, and I think Dean would agree. But have they denied me my rights from a practical standpoint? Absolutely. I now cannot get in my car and drive it whenever I want, for the plain and simple reason that I don't know where it is anymore. I may still have the theoretical right to control my property, but from a practical standpoint, I'm no better off for it.
That is what I understood Dean's point to be. Nearly all of the commentary I've seen seems to be attacking a point he wasn't really trying to make. Everyone seems to be arguing vehemently the position that rights do come from an ultimate authority, whether it be God or natural philosophy. But what Dean seems to be saying, and I agree with him, is basically this: when you're surrounded by a lynch mob, your right to life is essentially meaningless, because you're not going to get to exercise it. Only when the people around you are committed to protecting your rights are you going to be able to exercise them.
Now: as I said, I've only skimmed through the comments, so I may well be misunderstanding. If so, I'd welcome correction.
If all Dean is saying is that if a lynch mob kills you, you're dead, then nobody disputes that tautology. What I'm saying is that it's dangerous for Dean to whip up that mob against himself by undermining the only moral premises which can possibly restrain such a mob: their belief in his inalienable right to life, liberty, and property.
Here's a historical parallel: As a Liberal, I oppose the execution of Socrates by his fellow Athenians. But, as a Conservative, I can well understand why the Athenians felt as they did. They were in the middle of a War against a totalitarian state, Sparta. And, meanwhile, the Sophists had done everything they could to undermine the faith in the Gods that motivated Athenians to stand ready to die for their own city. Socrates, with his questionings, was thought to be one of those Sophists who was undermining the faith of the people, particularly the young and impressionable.
Today, we are faced with a parallel situation. We are at War with an enemy that seeks nothing less than our destruction. Meanwhile, sophists within our educational institutions, "post-modernists", "de-constructionists", and other assorted nihilists and collectivists are indoctrinating our young people with the notion that there is no God, that there are no absolutes, no inalienable rights, that the individual is nothing, that the mob is all, that anything goes if you have a big enough or loud enough mob, that there is no moral difference between a Saddam and a President George W. Bush. They are undermining the foundations of our form of government. They are undermining our will to fight to defend our civilization. We must oppose them. I will defend to the death their right to express their ideas (or what passes for ideas) on any street corner or any blog. But there is no Constitutional right to a security clearance or to indoctrinate young people at taxpayers' expense.
A nation of Clarence E. Manions will fight to keep itself free. A nation of Richard Rortys or Stanley Fishes will not. We must conserve our foundations.
Well, I thought I'd addressed your point, Steven, but perhaps it was not direct enough?
I simply don't think loyalty to the Constitution springs from faith in God.
It is certainly true that Christian thinking formed the basis of much of our system of law and government and sense of destiny. But as I have noted, the concept of natural law was not embraced by all the founders, and I would also note it has not been embraced by all legal, ethical, or religious scholars in the intervening centuries. As we have seen in this thread, some Christians even consider the concept vaguely heretical.
I will also note that Jerry Pournelle--who not only put those words in his character's mouth in that book, but also believes them himself I happen to know--is very conservative politically, is a believing Christian, and has a PhD in Political Science and has taught history and political science.
All of which does not make him correct of course, but should serve to illustrate that a belief in "natural rights" is apparently not a prerequisite for a fierce patriotism, loyalty to the constitution, or the rights it enshrines.
It does not surprise me that thinkers in the mid-20th century, who often believed we were locked in a twilight struggle with a horrible ideology, would lock on that ideology's atheism as central to its character, and would frame their arguments in that light. At the dawn of the 20th century, that metaphor seems less pressing, as the struggle we face now is not at all against atheism but rather against a rather fierce theism, monotheism at that. It may well be that the dissipation of Europe is due to their falling away from religion, I don't know; I think it has more to do with forces other than that.
I believe most Americans support our system of government and our rights because we have been raised to understand that they are sacred to us as Americans, that we must respect these rights if we want rights for ourselves. And I think it ends there.
I do not think that telling people "look, we're all in this together, you can't have your rights if you don't protect mine" is any more likely to drive out support for civil rights than telling them "God gave us these rights," especially because the latter belief is subject to being changed if people's religious faith changes.
What I note is that people mostly support each others' rights; when they don't, they still wind up assenting that obeying the Constitution is of ultimate importance.
Robin &Mark: You understand me perfectly on pragmatic grounds. Although I have to contradict you a little. I do not believe that "rights" exist at all except in people's minds as concepts. They are a form of social contract. They exist because we agree that they exist, and that is the only reason they exist.
If I read Steven correctly, he seems to think that if we stop believing that rights spring from a divine source, then people will stop supporting rights like free speech, free press, and so on. I'm skeptical of this notion.
NO! A hundred times NO!
The Constitution is a structural document. The nation is built on a foundation of natural rights. The Declaration of Independence is a foundational document. The USA existed for over a decade under the Articles of Confederation. It proved to be an unstable structure. So, it was razed to the ground, and a new structure, the Constitution, was put in its place. But both forms of government were built upon the foundation of American belief in the natural rights of man.
It is no coincidence that the Great Awakening preceded the American Revolution by but one generation. The children of the Great Awakening were the adults of the Revolution. It is also not surprising that the French Revolution failed to produce a similar long-lasting republic, for their Revolution was not based on the same foundation as that of America's.
Steven is right. No mere document, no mere form of government provides the basis for civil society. Thomas Paine addressed this issue directly in his pamphlet "Common Sense."
Note the assertion, "For were the impulses of conscience clear uniform, and irresistably obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver." This implies a universality of right and wrong, the idea that were everyone to follow their conscience, their innate understanding of natural right, then government would be superfluous.
In a sense, Dean is correct, in that the FREE EXERCISE of rights is only allowed by the agreement of fellow citizens. But the error in Dean's argument is that his fellow citizens are the SOURCE of his rights. That is absolutely not true. In fact, it is the God-given unalienable rights of others which places a RESPONSIBILITY on me to honor the rights of others - even when it is tiresome or inconvenient.
The fundamental flaw of Dean's proposal is that it places NO responsibility on anyone to respect the "rights" of anyone else. Without a universal source of rights, there are no rights, only whims and fashions. Freedom of thought is reduced to a political fashion, not a fundamental right.
There are immutable laws in the universe. One is free to test the limits of gravity, and even to foolishly ignore them. But gravity is not dependent upon our agreement. A wise man goes about his life with a healthy appreciation for gravity, because the consequences of ignoring it can be drastic indeed. So also, societies can and do ignore the natural rights of their individual citizens. But they do so at their own peril.
A Just society honors natural rights. A unjust society thwarts them. And a foolish society ignores them or refuses to acknowledge them.
But my point is that, even from an atheistic view, those superstitions have a certain paradoxical political utility, which I have been describing, and I don't know what you're purpose is in debunking them in this post. If you were a "post-modern" professor out to overthrow our form of government and replace it with a Communist system, I'd understand perfectly. But since you're not, I must confess that I'm at a loss to understand what your point is. What is the purpose of this post? What are you driving at?
Another thing is that some of your arguments strike me as babyish. Because God doesn't strike you down with a lightning bolt for being an atheist proves that there is no God? Because God doesn't intervene and stop people from doing bad things proves that there is no God? That's an infantile straw-man concepr of God that no theist believes in, and an intelligent atheist like you shouldn't waste your time trying to refute it. Theologians have been wrestling with the problem of evil for millennia, and that's why they came up with doctrines about free will, Original Sin, Hell, etc..
Robin Munn's example of the car thief is the same way. Somebody stole your car so that invalidates the whole concept of property rights? Why don't you call the police?! The fact that we have laws against theft and police to enforce them proves that our society does recognize the concept of property rights. That some criminals get away with their crimes doesn't negate the fact that they're considered crimes. Same with foreign tyrants. We have armies and go to war in order to protect our rights from them and,, as in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon, to vindicate the rights of their victims. We hanged the Nazis at Nuremburg. We didn't buy their specious arguments of legal positivism. "I was only following orders" was not accepted as an excuse. Of course, Right needs Might to defend it, and that's precisely why we have our guns and our bombs. That's the way it is. We theists believe that God has enlisted us to fight the good fight.
Cynicism is cheap and shallow, and naive to boot, and pragmatism isn't practical.
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. The majority of Americans, unlike the rest of Europe, aren't buying positivism or de-constructionism or any of those nihilistic philosophies. The professors who propagate those subversive philosophies are still very much in the minority in America. We are heading the other way. We are in the midst of a religious revival, we are in the Second Religiousness as Spengler prophesied. The fundamental churches are growing. Fundamental and evangelical Protestants, traditional Catholics, Orthodox Jews, are making a comeback. Some are even going back to the Old Time Religions like Asatru. Even many of the radical Leftists are turning toward Islam as their substitute religion now that Marxism is dying off.
That's the way it is. Hard-headed skeptics like Dean and Arnold Harris are free to shake their heads and say it's all nonsense, and I'll defend to the death your right to do so. More than that, I say we need the atheists. They obviously serve a Divine purpose as well, perhaps proving that God has a funny sense of humor.
(I'm a Polytheist myself, but I use "God" here as shorthand for the total Godhead, the way we in the West have been referring to the Divine for the last 1000 years or so. Christianity, or Judao-Christianity, is and has long been felt to be the traditional religion of the West, and I'm accepting that fact. That's just the way it is in this year 2005 Anno Domini. Happy Sunna's Day.)
Excellent! Thank you.
"I think the point here isn't that rights come from man, but unless man upholds those rights, they are worthless. Thus, the only rights that are worth anything are those that are upheld by man. In this sense, although rights might not come directly from man, man is the ultimate gatekeeper of the rights, and as such has ultimate control of them."
I don't want to be rude, but: Since nobody has ever denied, disputed, or doubted that, your point seems somewhat pointless to me. The idea of a God who zaps people with a lightning bolt every time they sin is a straw-man that no theist believes in, and so you're wasting your time refuting it. Jews and Christians believe that God works through His People or His Church, and Asatruars believe similarly. Divine interventions are considered miraculous precisely because they are rare and unexpected.
Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration Independence, was a Deist who didn't believe in miracles at all, so the straw-man God applies even less to him. Read the Declaration thoroughtly. He listed in detail the long train of abuses by the British government, so this idea that he was some naive fool, some retarded child, who knew nothing about the real world is palpably false and an insult to the Founders of our country.
Surely, there is some reason the Founders did not separate out, as so many scholars do today, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, separation of Church and State, freedom of assembly, and freedom of the press. Too often, I believe we fail to understand why these are all conglomerated in ONE amendment.
None of these enumerated freedoms is a natural right by itself. But all of them are an expression of an understanding of natural rights. Fundamentally, the understanding of the Founders was that every man had a right to his ideas and beliefs. Also, no government could control those ideas and beliefs. At the worst, a government could use its coercive power to cause a man to hide them, or even deny they exist. But at best, a government would encourage a man to bring forth his ideas and beliefs into the public square so that they might contribute to the benefit of all.
What the 1st Amendment does is to recognize the profound uniqueness of every person and honor it by prohibiting the government from putting limits on his ability to express those ideas publicly. It is the uniqueness of man which is a natural right, and his ability to express his uniqueness, as well.
That is why I am so profoundly opposed to class-concious leftists who seek to submerge the individual into a group identity. It is why I am so offended whenever my political opponents accuse me of being a mindless sheep following after whoever is the latest incarnation of conservative political leadership.
The attempt by the left to squelch our individuality by insisting on classifications, whether by race, wealth, political affiliation, sexual practice, profession, education, etc. is anethema to the American ideal.
Free Speech is important ONLY because what I say matters. Freedom of Religion is important ONLY because what I believe matters. It is my uniqueness which is of vital importance. And so also for every other American.
And it is only because of the limitations of our power that these freedoms are not extended to every human being. Would that we were as powerful as many suppose, so that we might truly extend those freedom to all. But the decision to exercise freedom, even in the face of adverse consequences, is a choice every individual must make. We cannot force others to practice freedom. We can only suppress some of the tyrants, and offer our example to encourage others.
Every person is unique AND IMPORTANT, and our system is the best we have yet come up with that recognizes that fact. Those who wish to tear down our system are invariably those who seek the power to subvert our uniqueness to enhance their own. This MUST BE OPPOSED AT ALL COSTS!!
Splendid!!
Not all of the Founders agreed in natural rights. At all. Furthermore, even those who did believe in the notion often disagreed with each other on what they entailed--and a not inconsiderable faction hated Thomas Paine's guts, by the way, and considered him a filthy atheist (which he wasn't, but certainly he was a heretic in any believing Christian's eyes). It remains to this day that there are Christians, patriotic Americans in many cases, who find the doctrine of natural rights specious and possibly even heretical.
Scott and Steven, will either of you acknowledge that this much is true? Otherwise, we have very little else to argue about.
Still further, if natural rights extend from God, can you explain to me WHERE in scripture you come to this belief? Or is it something that is reasoned out of the scriptures and has become an extra-biblical doctrine much like the doctrine of Petrine Succession is for Catholics--something you accept on faith because you have concluded that if scripture is true then this must also be true?
Well, we're not going to find a prohibition against unreasonable searches and siezures in the Bible, if that is what you mean.
If you believe you really have a right to something, then this must be indisputable for it to be accepted - thus we formulated it that we were endowed by our Creator with our rights; anyone who wants to argue with this may take it up with the Almighty, but meanwhile let me see a warrant before you come in.
If your rights are not indisputable, then they will be harried and chipped away until they are gone...you have a right to your property because you do? Well, isn't that sweet - hand over half and we'll be back for the rest later, Mr. Right to Property.
It must, in the end, be stated that God grants our rights because only thus can we really go forward to argue that they must be protected - without the God foundation, our rights are as shifting sands. This, of course, is easy for a believer...but even a non-believer is eventually just going to have to get around this and acknowledge it.
To answer your question directly:
The concept of Natural Rights is a political expression of a combination of religious belief and natural scientific observation. It is an expression of Romans 1:19-20
Also, check out Jeremiah 31, and Hebrew 8,
And here comes the responsibility part:
Thomas Paine made his case for liberty by recounting the story of the Israelites choosing a king in I Samuel 8, saying that only God should be our King.
Men may need to cooperate with other men, but not to be subject to them. Only those who reject God run the risk of becoming subjects of other men, because they have rejected God. Hence, to reject God is to expose yourself to subjugation. So, because the Israelites rejected God, God allowed them to have a king who would lord it over them as detailed in the rest of I Samuel 8.
Finally, the concept of natural rights traces back to man being created in the image of God, and man having direct access to God. A man with direct access to God has access to the truth, and needs no other man to tell him what is right and wrong.
Still, to be clear: you are suggesting that a belief in rights is an item of religious faith. But, is this dogma, along the order of the trinity or the doctrine of Petrine succession? Or is it merely a hunch?
Moving onward, you state:
If you believe you really have a right to something, then this must be indisputable for it to be accepted...
Say what?
Rights get disputed all the time. It's what we have these things called "laws" and "courts" for.
Furthermore, a right strikes me as being far more secure when it is written down in plain black and white by men, that any person can read and understand, and supported by a rigorous history of case law, than it is by having anyone piously declare, "you have this right because God says you have it."
Another assertion:
Thus we formulated it that we were endowed by our Creator with our rights...
"We" as in human beings formulated them, not God, so far as I can see.
I also assume that by "we" you mean America's founders, most (not all, but most) of whom believed there was such a thing as "natural law" and thus divinely inspired rights. This I grant: most of the founders believed there was such a thing as ultimate right and wrong, and that therefore there must be such things as natural rights.
However, I think that a position rooted in shifting sands, and I am not the only one to think so. Most (not all, but most) of them agreed that there was such a thing as natural rights, but if you tried to get them to be specific about what was a natural right and what wasn't, the debate became quite furious.
You state:
If your rights are not indisputable, then they will be harried and chipped away until they are gone.
Yes, that seems to be Steven Malcolm Anderson and some other people's position as well.
But skepticism of the entire notion of "natural rights" has been with us a long, long time. Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes was probably the most famous critic of the entire concept of "natural rights." He wasn't merely skeptical, he was an outright enemy of the whole notion, finding it pernicious.
I also note that various rights have been in dispute in America from day one, and all that's really happened over time is that we've seen more expansions of civil rights than the other way 'round.
Not in all cases of course. The 2nd amendment eroded, for example. But the 1st amendment is much, much stronger now than it was at the time of the founding. Indeed, heresy was still a crime in much of the U.S. throughout our history; in parts of the U.S. during the 19th century, just denying the divinity of Christ was a jailing offense.
This gets back to why I think you conservatives are hoist with your own petard on this: by declaring that rights spring from God, and that the enumertion of rights is human, that all judges can do is "discover" rights.
In other words, you have just endorsed the entire concept of "legislating from the bench" which conservatives spend so much time railing against these days. For it allows judges and justistices to "discover" all kinds of rights based on the notion that some things simply "should" be "rights."
Which gets me back to the question: How is this any different from stating that rights come from men in the first place?
you have a right to your property because you do? Well, isn't that sweet - hand over half and we'll be back for the rest later, Mr. Right to Property.
Gosh, that's my argument. "You say you have a right to property because God says so? Tough shit. You got any paper to back that up, pal, or do you just want to pray at me?"
It strikes me that what you're ultimtely saying is that if I refute the Christian Doctrine of Divinely Inspired Natural Rights, the Constitution evaporates and the courts simply disappear, or simply cease to function. I fail to see how this is so.
It must, in the end, be stated that God grants our rights because only thus can we really go forward to argue that they must be protected - without the God foundation, our rights are as shifting sands. This, of course, is easy for a believer...but even a non-believer is eventually just going to have to get around this and acknowledge it.
Balderdash! I rest my faith in liberal democracy and in Constitutional order, not in the shifting theological views of various competing factions of Christians.
The Romans had a bloody strong legal code long before they were Christian or even monotheistic, and they aren't they only example.
I understand there is a strong Catholic doctrine of "natural law" dogma. I'm just not sure why the rest of us are supposed to simply accept at face value that if we reject that dogma, it means that our Constitution, our system of law, our courts, and our legal system will evaporate and all will descend into anarchy and madness.
And I also note again: this notion of "natural law" is the very source of the "judicial activism" that many of today's conservatives bitch about.
Still, I get it. You're claiming that right and wrong spring from God. Therefore, there is an ultimate source of right and wrong. I get it.
What I reject is the notion that if we cease to share this item of religious faith with you, our system of law will collapse.
"And I also note again: this notion of "natural law" is the very source of the "judicial activism" that many of today's conservatives bitch about."
True. That's a contradiction. Conservatives should stop bitching so much about "judicial activism" and instead start rolling back un-Constitutional "executive activism" and "legislative activism" and government "activism" in general, start restoring the Constitution to what it was in the days before FDR, restore limited government and individual rights. John Geddes Lawrence and Tyron Garner: heroes of freedom.
That is where I stand.
Friagabi!
The impact of the Founders notwithstanding, it is the people of America in the 1770's that had the greatest impact. And Paine's essay was key to understanding their position. And Paine acknowledged their religiousness by making a religious case for rejecting King George III.
I believe it is impossible to understand the American Revolution without first understanding the impact that the Great Awakening had on 18 century America. The seed of liberty would not have taken root if the ground was not prepared for it.
Paine eventually rejected all authority, including governmental and church authority. In this, he has much in common with the French in the French Revolution. But Paine did not participate in the Great Awakening. However, he was not above "using" the religious beliefs of the people to advance his cause.
From this website: http://www.wfu.edu/~matthetl/perspectives/four.html