I wouldn't wear a nazi uniform either, even as an actor in a play.
But I won't condemn anyone for having a different take on a rather fuzzy ethical issue.
As a gun guy, I can't help thinking what a great target those pure white robes and headsacks would have made in the woods on a dark night in some southern pine forest. Especially when silhouetted against the light of a burning cross or the torch-illuminated corpse of some lynched victim. Wouldn't even have needed a barrel-mounted nightscope, I think.
Meantime, the black guy operating that rifle and defending his community or family from the kluxers would have the best camouflage in the world. No need for any facial greasepaint such as a white sniper would need.
A few consternation-laden klavern meetings at the local funeral parlor to look over the corpses and figure out how all those members of their 'krew' suddenly got extra holes in their heads, and they'd have been ready to set up shop in the comparatively easy pickings of Falluja instead of rural America.
As for those Nazis and their Hollywoodish black uniforms. I'd like to ask some old Wehrmacht landsers from WWII whether any of those fucking concentration camp heroes with their steel whips ever defended their Reich against real armed enemies who could shoot back; like the tough Russian army that destroyed Paulus' 6th Army at Stalingrad in the deep-frozen winter of 1942-1943.
(But I think I already know the answer to that one. The concentration camp goons were the ones that rigged up their escapes to Spain, Argentina, Chile and Paraguay; while the landsers, when they got out of the allied POW camps, had to go out in the streets, clean up the shattered bricks, and rebuild Germany.)
I think it's fine to dress like a pirate. I think it's even more fun to talk like a pirate.
Pirates have been so cartoonized these days that no one associates the wearer of the costume with someone who would actually go out and rape and pillage.
Nazis and the KKK were bent on the destruction of two specific groups - Jews and blacks, of course. Pirates were people who raped and pillaged more or less at random. Now, if Blackbeard and all his pirate friends were responsible for targetting, say, all people of Dutch decent who lived in the Caribbean, and actually succeeded in killing hundreds of thousands of them for no other reason than to purify the breed of people who lived in that area of the world, then yes, I would consider it extremely bad taste to dress as a pirate.
M. Scott Eiland: Bad example. The Nazi's on HH were the object of ridicule.
I suppose you can take my post to absurdity and say we shouldn't dress as executioners because you might offend someone that is decendant from Ann Boleyn. You can do that if you want to. You're actually making my point about the difference between the two cases.
I have a friend who likes to wear an East European border guard uniform, and he's the sweetest, most wonderful guy in the world.
Some people just like uniforms.
Costume parties are often an opportunity for people to get in touch with evil, with their "dark sides." (Especially at Halloween.)
I don't think Harry should have done it, because he should have realized that as a "royal," his actions would be under close scrutiny. But we do need to learn to peacefully co-exist with history, including its bloodshed.
Harry is a very young man, and for him this is history: it happened long before he was born.
I don't think anyone wearing any costume should be accused of advocating the philosophy/actions suggested by that costume.
For instance, I don't necessarily advocate anything done by Attila the Hun. But he's passed into history. There's some distance. And I hope that's how Harry felt when he had his little lapse in judgment.
That said, I'd never wear a klan-like robe and hood to a party, because 1) I'm an American, and I don't feel that these people are "distant" from me; I see them as a real threat, at least to individual families and communities. And 2) the Klan, unlike the Nazi party, was never vanquished.
"M. Scott Eiland: Bad example. The Nazi's on HH were the object of ridicule."
And wearing a Nazi costume to a costume party does. . .what exactly? In any event, there are those who would say that the ridicule on HH minimized the montrosity of Nazis and as such would be offensive.
I was watching a Monty Python DVD last night, and they were talking about Graham Chapman having such a dark sense of humor.
One time, they were hired by the German government to do a MP special in German. The Germans gave them a 10-day writing retreat, and the first thing they did was take the Pythons to Dachau. The Pythons were perplexed but went along. When they arrived, Dachau was closing for the day and it didn't look like they were going to get in. Chapman said, "tell them we're Jewish." And sure enough, they let them in.
Michael, maybe we're both spinning our wheels here. In my own life, I make a point of drawing a line between "things there's no way in hell I'd do myself" and "things I feel compelled to denounce loudly in public and private." Wearing a Nazi costume in any context (aside from the remote possibility that I might be cast in a historical play/movie about the WW II era) falls into the first category for me, not the second. Do you think Prince Harry did anything *wrong*, as opposed to something that would creep you out if you contemplated doing it yourself and something you simply weren't comfortable in seeing?
I may comment later on this whole costume thing, but for now I'll just say: Those pictures say it all -- too --------- much! -- about both the Nazis and the Klan. I hate them both. Communists, too. And all of their apologists.
I must also add that, once again, Arnold Harris shows us what he is made of. A powerful man of honor. A real mensch. A Nemesis to tyrants everywhere. I admire Arnold Harris.
M. Scott: I think what Prince Hal did was wrong, for precisely the reasons Dean enumerated above.
You know, at the time I was tempted to ask Dean -who has repeatedly expressed his displeasure with those who still wear Che Guevara shirts- the difference between that, and the Nazi uniform "bit." But I relented, since he was expecting soon, and he's a stiff-necked bastard at any time. :)
Dean, I'm proud of you. If nothing else, you have the rare trait of admitting you were wrong, or that you have changed your mind, in public. It takes a big man to say that.
Same goes for Michael Demmons. I may have to stop calling him a squishy liberal if this keeps up. Heh.
Michael Demmons wrote:
"I think it's fine to dress like a pirate. I think it's even more fun to talk like a pirate.
Pirates have been so cartoonized these days that no one associates the wearer of the costume with someone who would actually go out and rape and pillage."
Exactly. Count Dracula was also modeled after a real historical monster, but no one objects to kids dressing up as Dracula, who is usually twinned with Dr. Frankenstein's monster in the popular imagination. Kids even dress up as Satan himself on Halloween.
But none of us ever dreamed of dressing up as a Nazi or Ku Kluxer. Supernatural, imaginary, or remote-historical evil doesn't carry the same ideological baggage as modern totalitarian or racist evil.
Annoying Old Guy wrote:
"The real question is, why don't people feel the same way about Soviet imagery? Because the survivors don't live around here?"
Actually, there is a substantial Russian community here in Bellevue, WA, people who might well object to Soviet imagery for that reason.
The main reason Soviet or Maoist imagery doesn't affect us so deeply was discussed extensively in an earlier post here just a few days ago: The Left, which largely dominates the major media and educational institutions, has made certain that, while Nazis and fascists are to be regarded as unrelieved monsters, Communists are merely "misguided idealists". Any opposition to Communism is sneered at as "Cold War hysteria" and/or condemned as "McCarthyism". McCarthy, we are supposed to believe, was as evil as Hitler.
I come out on the other side of this, if only because I think mocking evil people is a good thing.
Mel Brooks did it better than anyone, whether it was the idiot Klansman in Blazing Saddles or the Nazis/former Nazis in History of the World and The Producers.
"Springtime for Hitler and Germany... Winter for Poland and France...."
Unfortunately, Harry didn't particularly mock Nazis, but he obviously didn't support them either.
That would have been enough if Western civilization wasn't being turned into a contest of who can be offended the most.
I'd like to say "I'm a Jew of European ancestry! I have relatives who were killed by the Nazis! I get 3 points for being offended!", but to be honest, I hadn't even heard of Harry until now. And I really liked The Producers, so it might seem a little inconsistent.
While I think Harry didn't mean any harm by it, I think it was incredibly stupid.
Espicially considering that either his grandparents or great-grandparents were the King and Queen that stayed in London during the Battle of London - that they had to suffer through the bombing of the Nazis, not knowing if they might fall under the influence of the Nazis and have their minorities subjected to that treatment.
"I wouldn't wear a nazi uniform either, even as an actor in a play."
There is a play called God's Country (link to theater review) that deals with a group of white supremacists up in Idaho (not Richard Butler's group.) I had several friends perform in a production of it once, and they said the creepiest part was memorizing the white supremacist version of the Pledge of Allegiance.
(Incidentally, one of the guys who played one of the leading racists was awarded an African American scholarship to University of Oklahoma. I appreciated the irony; I know he did.)
I can say that the play is powerful and frightening, and therefore I see the purpose in such outfits on stage. But I won't make you do it. :)
But I won't condemn anyone for having a different take on a rather fuzzy ethical issue.
Yep, that's pretty much how I came to my conclusion. And I don't mean that in a snarky way - that actually IS how I came to it - mostly.
Ah, well, there was a Reich to be built.
What are your thoughts on dressing like a pirate?
Meantime, the black guy operating that rifle and defending his community or family from the kluxers would have the best camouflage in the world. No need for any facial greasepaint such as a white sniper would need.
A few consternation-laden klavern meetings at the local funeral parlor to look over the corpses and figure out how all those members of their 'krew' suddenly got extra holes in their heads, and they'd have been ready to set up shop in the comparatively easy pickings of Falluja instead of rural America.
As for those Nazis and their Hollywoodish black uniforms. I'd like to ask some old Wehrmacht landsers from WWII whether any of those fucking concentration camp heroes with their steel whips ever defended their Reich against real armed enemies who could shoot back; like the tough Russian army that destroyed Paulus' 6th Army at Stalingrad in the deep-frozen winter of 1942-1943.
(But I think I already know the answer to that one. The concentration camp goons were the ones that rigged up their escapes to Spain, Argentina, Chile and Paraguay; while the landsers, when they got out of the allied POW camps, had to go out in the streets, clean up the shattered bricks, and rebuild Germany.)
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Pirates have been so cartoonized these days that no one associates the wearer of the costume with someone who would actually go out and rape and pillage.
Nazis and the KKK were bent on the destruction of two specific groups - Jews and blacks, of course. Pirates were people who raped and pillaged more or less at random. Now, if Blackbeard and all his pirate friends were responsible for targetting, say, all people of Dutch decent who lived in the Caribbean, and actually succeeded in killing hundreds of thousands of them for no other reason than to purify the breed of people who lived in that area of the world, then yes, I would consider it extremely bad taste to dress as a pirate.
M. Scott Eiland: Bad example. The Nazi's on HH were the object of ridicule.
I suppose you can take my post to absurdity and say we shouldn't dress as executioners because you might offend someone that is decendant from Ann Boleyn. You can do that if you want to. You're actually making my point about the difference between the two cases.
I have a friend who likes to wear an East European border guard uniform, and he's the sweetest, most wonderful guy in the world.
Some people just like uniforms.
Costume parties are often an opportunity for people to get in touch with evil, with their "dark sides." (Especially at Halloween.)
I don't think Harry should have done it, because he should have realized that as a "royal," his actions would be under close scrutiny. But we do need to learn to peacefully co-exist with history, including its bloodshed.
Harry is a very young man, and for him this is history: it happened long before he was born.
I don't think anyone wearing any costume should be accused of advocating the philosophy/actions suggested by that costume.
For instance, I don't necessarily advocate anything done by Attila the Hun. But he's passed into history. There's some distance. And I hope that's how Harry felt when he had his little lapse in judgment.
That said, I'd never wear a klan-like robe and hood to a party, because 1) I'm an American, and I don't feel that these people are "distant" from me; I see them as a real threat, at least to individual families and communities. And 2) the Klan, unlike the Nazi party, was never vanquished.
And wearing a Nazi costume to a costume party does. . .what exactly? In any event, there are those who would say that the ridicule on HH minimized the montrosity of Nazis and as such would be offensive.
Well, I don't know if I agree with that. If HH was making fun of the Jews, then yeah.
But you know what? I was on the side of saying all this Nazi costume stuff was silly a couple weeks ago. Now I think that was wrong.
But that doesn't mean I'm right now either. I just think I am. Big difference.
One time, they were hired by the German government to do a MP special in German. The Germans gave them a 10-day writing retreat, and the first thing they did was take the Pythons to Dachau. The Pythons were perplexed but went along. When they arrived, Dachau was closing for the day and it didn't look like they were going to get in. Chapman said, "tell them we're Jewish." And sure enough, they let them in.
Not exactly pertinent, but funny.
You know, at the time I was tempted to ask Dean -who has repeatedly expressed his displeasure with those who still wear Che Guevara shirts- the difference between that, and the Nazi uniform "bit." But I relented, since he was expecting soon, and he's a stiff-necked bastard at any time. :)
Dean, I'm proud of you. If nothing else, you have the rare trait of admitting you were wrong, or that you have changed your mind, in public. It takes a big man to say that.
Same goes for Michael Demmons. I may have to stop calling him a squishy liberal if this keeps up. Heh.
"I think it's fine to dress like a pirate. I think it's even more fun to talk like a pirate.
Pirates have been so cartoonized these days that no one associates the wearer of the costume with someone who would actually go out and rape and pillage."
Exactly. Count Dracula was also modeled after a real historical monster, but no one objects to kids dressing up as Dracula, who is usually twinned with Dr. Frankenstein's monster in the popular imagination. Kids even dress up as Satan himself on Halloween.
But none of us ever dreamed of dressing up as a Nazi or Ku Kluxer. Supernatural, imaginary, or remote-historical evil doesn't carry the same ideological baggage as modern totalitarian or racist evil.
Annoying Old Guy wrote:
"The real question is, why don't people feel the same way about Soviet imagery? Because the survivors don't live around here?"
Actually, there is a substantial Russian community here in Bellevue, WA, people who might well object to Soviet imagery for that reason.
The main reason Soviet or Maoist imagery doesn't affect us so deeply was discussed extensively in an earlier post here just a few days ago: The Left, which largely dominates the major media and educational institutions, has made certain that, while Nazis and fascists are to be regarded as unrelieved monsters, Communists are merely "misguided idealists". Any opposition to Communism is sneered at as "Cold War hysteria" and/or condemned as "McCarthyism". McCarthy, we are supposed to believe, was as evil as Hitler.
By the way, I AM a liberal. And I am proud of it.
Read this.
Mel Brooks did it better than anyone, whether it was the idiot Klansman in Blazing Saddles or the Nazis/former Nazis in History of the World and The Producers.
"Springtime for Hitler and Germany... Winter for Poland and France...."
That would have been enough if Western civilization wasn't being turned into a contest of who can be offended the most.
I'd like to say "I'm a Jew of European ancestry! I have relatives who were killed by the Nazis! I get 3 points for being offended!", but to be honest, I hadn't even heard of Harry until now. And I really liked The Producers, so it might seem a little inconsistent.
Espicially considering that either his grandparents or great-grandparents were the King and Queen that stayed in London during the Battle of London - that they had to suffer through the bombing of the Nazis, not knowing if they might fall under the influence of the Nazis and have their minorities subjected to that treatment.
There is a play called God's Country (link to theater review) that deals with a group of white supremacists up in Idaho (not Richard Butler's group.) I had several friends perform in a production of it once, and they said the creepiest part was memorizing the white supremacist version of the Pledge of Allegiance.
(Incidentally, one of the guys who played one of the leading racists was awarded an African American scholarship to University of Oklahoma. I appreciated the irony; I know he did.)
I can say that the play is powerful and frightening, and therefore I see the purpose in such outfits on stage. But I won't make you do it. :)