Will George Bush Disappoint Evangelicals? (Joe Gandelman)
Joe Gandelman
The liberal Evangelical blog Heart, Soul & Humor thinks so -- and offers this intriguging analysis of why.
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As a man, George W Bush is probably as deep-seated a christian as is likely to achieve the highest office of this land in the early 21st century.
As a president, George W Bush must contend with the fact that most Americans approve in principle with abortion, in at least in first three months of embryonic development, as a women's right if she determines this is in the best interests of her health, her ability to raise a child, and in consideration of any serious physical defects expected if and when the fetus comes to term.
He likewise must contend with the certainty that most Americans believe evolution as a better explanation than creationism in regard to how the human race began and developed.
Likewise, most Americans -- and especially those with friends and relatives with disabilities that only advances in medical science can cure -- approve of the use of human stem cells in research on behalf of that science. Even if the stem cells in question were harvested from aborted human embroyos.
Presidents, as opposed to candidates, are only permitted so much ideological leeway in the way they must deal with the realities of a modern society. And what is no less true for Bush, the right-centrist, than it almost certainly have been for Kerry, a counterpart left-centrist, had he won the recent presidential election.
A key reason life remains livable in this most livable of all societies is that the mainsteam of political opinion rarely ventures to the right of right-center or to the left of left-center. Perhaps the deep thinkers of the major American parties can spend some time pondering the long-term social and political implications of just that stability.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Excellent! I was thinking about you.
"I'm sure he will fail us. He doesn't dance to our tune."
-Dr. James Dobson
Good! I'm very glad to hear that the President I voted for will not dance to the tune of the likes of Dobson, Charles Colson, Ralph Reed, and the like. I hope so, they are my enemies. I hope the President continues to focus instead on his duties as Commander-in-Chief of our armed forces in this War against the Terror Masters abroad.
I'm extremely pleased with Condi Rice as Secretary of State. Beautiful! Looks like a step up toward my dream: Condi in 2008.
The news has been looking up lately. The election is over. Bush won. Kerry conceded. I hated those anti-marriage amendments, but I'm still glad Bush won, I'm still glad I voted for him. Arafat is dead. Good riddance. John Ashcroft has resigned and Alberto Gonzales will take his place. He sounds like he will be better, though Ashcroft was certainly libertarian compared to his predecessor. And now Colin Powell has resigned to make room for Condi Rice. She'll be much better. The very fact that she's so hated proves that.
I have to agree with Dr. Laura Sclessinger on this "mental health screening" in public schools. I, too, am against it. It's a secular tyranny to match the tyranny in the name of religion advocated by some.
Most evangelicals I've talked to have a deep respect for Bush's religious side. That, I don't think, will be squandered anytime soon.
Nor will the pragmatic analysis of the decision before them. From the perspective of "moral values" (read: gay marriage and abortion), it's hard to imagine Bush disappointing so badly that evangelicals wish Kerry had won. Dobson's attitude is somewhat understandable, given his relative lack of political involvement, but Colson and Reed (assuming the references to them are accurate) should know better. And Schlesinger sounds eminently reasonable: endorse the better candidate, and then petition for improvement. Do we think Democratic forces would have done no less with Kerry?
Finally, it's important to understand that the majority of evangelicals aren't quite so unified as their leadership sometimes makes them sound. Dobson may not be happy with some of Bush's decisions, but I doubt he'll be able to muster enough outrage to make a serious difference. It's hard to get all bent out of shape over someone whose views are described as "murky".
When I read that Heart, Soul, &Humor post, I see a lot of hyperbole and simplistic analysis. I think too much is being made of this "values" exit poll thing, especially given the sloppiness of those polls on verifiable subjects.
Meanwhile, those on the hard left will continue to grouse about Bush's "far right wing agenda."
Same as it ever was?
Excellent comments, Arnold and Jeff!
Hmmm. I don't seem to recall that being the case in any of the polling I've seen. Not only that, but the sentence contains at least three weasel points: "in principle," "at least in first three months," and "if she determines this is in the best interest ..."
Actually, most Americans from what I've seen are extremely uncomfortable with abortion for the purposes you decide, but are more forgiving of abortion in the case of rape, incest or endangering the life of the mother.
Pandering to the extremes at either end, and in either party is a move that irks and diminishes the party centrists, who are much more likly to flee in the voting booth.
The most extreme elements of either parties will complain, but still loyally vote the party line when the time comes. Pandering to them only hurts the candidates.
A national CBS News poll released 1/22/2003, on the 30th anniversary of Roe v Wade, showed the following:
-- 39% said abortion rights should be generally available. (Democrats, 45%; Republicans 29%; Independents 42%.)
-- 38% said aoortion rights should be available but with some restrictions. (Democrats 35%, Republicans 41%; Independents 38%.)
-- 22% said abortion rights should not be permitted. (Democrats 26%, Republicans 28%; Independents 18%.)
Anybody who argues that most Americans oppose abortion rights for women, or that Republicans line up solidly with the religious right over abortion issues, ought to acquaint themselves with some facts before putting fingers on the keyboard.
And I say again, that most Americans are getting tired of the grandstand plays of certain extremists in regard to issues such as these.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
The danger of not "pandering" to the "extremes" lies in disillusioning these people, causing them to either not vote, or to form a third party. Either scenario means the party in question loses votes.
Two examples: Ross Perot in 1992, and Ralph Nader recently. When Nader talks about how the two major parties are virtually identical, he is preaching to the extreme Democrats, who suspect such a thing but are wavering on the fence.
One of the reasons the Democrats are having the troubles they have is that they think (true or not) that they are losing their own extremists to people like Nader. The narrow loss in 2000 seemed to confirm that the Dems had neglected their extremists, and were paying the political price.
One option for a party is to write off one's unruly extremists. This is a radical realignment, and one many of us conservative leaners hope the Democrats do in the next two years. But it's a very bold move, and it doesn't always work, so Democratic reluctance to do what (many of us think) needs to be done isn't inappropriate.
The Republicans, as you have observed, seem to have a much more compliant "extreme wing" than the Democrats. But I would caution against seeing compliance as either control or moderation.
Indeed, you can look at it as saying most people support abortion rights--OR, you can look at it and say that most people support government restrictions on abortion.
Both statements would be true in fact. Most people want abortion legal, but most people also want government restrictions on it.
By the way, if you look at polling data that breaks down by sex, I believe you'll also find that women are generally more in favor of restrictions on the procedure than men are. Such has been the case with every poll I've ever seen on the matter; indeed, women have been trending more and more against abortion for decades, to the point where about 50% of them self-identify as "pro-life," and younger women are more pro-life and than older women. Perhaps this is due to the greater wisdom of the older women, but I'm more inclined to think that it has to do with the much greater ability science has given us to see and hear a growing child in the womb--and while you may be utterly unimpressed with such imagery, young people, young women especially, are impressed. Indeed, study has shown that if you show a pregnant woman an ultrasound and let her hear the heartbeat before an abortion, she is much likilier to change her mind and carry the child to term.
I can certainly tell you that my son Drake is due to be born in about two months, and while I am generally pro-choice I'll tell you right now that I'd consider an abortion at this point to be the murder of my son, pure and simple. My wife, being pro-life, would never do such a thing, but I can assure you that if she did it would result in an instant divorce.
The truth of the matter is that when you get right down to it, most Americans do not support extremist views one way or the other on this matter. Most support restrictions on the procedure but want it generally available. It is highly likely, in my view, that when Roe v. Wade is finally overturned (and it will be one day, it was a just plain lousy decision as even a growing number of left/liberal legal scholars acknowledge), we'll wind up with legislation that most people can live with.
children. I am of course talking about the late 1800's and early 1900's. Two remarkable women brought about voting privledges for ladies.
Those ladies, my Grandmother's were raised to a higher *social* status and would gather in a church or hall to discuss matters that pertained to their families which most certainly did mean, *morals*.
In the mid thirties my Mother and Father had a bit of a better life due to the social changes made by their parents for womens rights. And it was beginning to be *accepted*, for a woman to work out of her home somewhat. There was still a *boundary* in the air. A *boundary* was still drawn for *society*.
In the forties quite a bit took place and once again we were questioning *morals* and women put on one piece bathing suits that were a bit different than those before. Now they were losing the modest bathing suits with the skirts over their hips. And of course the funny tights covering their bodies. The war left a lot of lonely women behind and a real emptiness. Her man, her husband was overseas so she went to a factory to work, or set out to be secretaries. Then many begin to enjoy receiving their own monies that they alone earned. Many women married and single took to the allure of a fancy nightclub to enjoy herself and then found companions with their mates gone overseas. The same with the mate overseas turning to a good gin and tonic and they too had a woman put their arms around them. We then also had to accept interracial marriages overseas and here on our soil. It was a *culture* shock to see these japenese and chinese women come home with a GI. Believe me, there was nasty talk and *society* frowned on that couple.
The era I was born into of the 50's started to see divorce more. It was a judged as a *social* and moral decay. We were trying to adjust to live after the war. We were trying to ge gracious to the influx of refugees and mixed marriages. We would hear of the Andersons down the street just got a divorce and no sooner did we hear that, but also the Smith family divorced on the same block we lived on. What was causing people to do this?
The 60's truly brought about more *social* changes and now black men were marrying white women. Interracial marriage was still not accepted. The interracial couples had to be very discreet. The Vietnam war took this nation into utter madness. We lost a president, a senator a cival rights leader. People were looking for peace and understanding. They had turned away from family sunday go to meeting churches. They were fearful and men like, The Reverand Billy Graham started speaking of hope and help for their fears and burdens. He gathered first hundreds and soon there after, thousands. He stated he did not want to be a preacher but an evangelist. Bringing hope to familes scared, familes breaking up through divorces, through parents still holding onto modesty for their daughters and decency and integrity to their sons.
My era was still looking down on abortion and adoption. As I was just fourteen. Now truly imagine and look into your little teen girl at 14. Was it better to have an abortion in 1964 or was it better to give life. A young girl or young woman of 20 years of age is faced with a HUGE decision. OK, I am in the mid 60's here. Many women chose one or the other. Both women were put to Shame, both!
Roe vs. Wade does need to be looked at because the very woman that brought about this *social* change has in fact regretted her decision. You absolutely can not tell me, nor can you tell a woman that had the abortion where *the boundary* is. You can not tell me after having five children that to attempt to aboard at three weeks into the mothers womb, or three months is the time to make that decision.
Countless women that have aborted have suffered deeply. First in her own soul, her body and then to her faith she was or was not brought into. It is still tender, it is still in the year 2004 a tremendous decision and believe me, she feels it is moral rather she believes in God or not.
I disagree with the post that James Dobson is leaning right or that Americans do not care about what this fine man says. He is a Father, a Husband, and an author of some outstanding books on raising children. He is for families to hold their children up to growing into decent, respectable men and women. He chose his profession in psycology eras ago. His books on drugs, premarital sex, building stronger families both husband and wife with his couseling. His books on Get Tough on drugs have helped thousands. Tough Love is an organization that I found myself in to help a dear family member.
Chuck Colsen, was in jail. Chuck Colsen was with the wrong crowd. His friends got cocky and Chuck Colsen was outside when his friends came running out of a store they had just robbed. Chuck Colsen went to prison. It is called guilty by association. Chuck Colsen while in prison was introduced to, The Bible. Same thing with Johnny Cash. Prison to Bible.
I have said and I will repeat. Moral values are, have been and always be a part of America. You may not believe in God, you may not believe in Jesus as I do. However, Morals, principles, values, rules and regulations are still the values that keep America Beautiful.
Christians, Catholics, Jewish, Hindu and on and on DO Have a Huge Impact on how we want to still keep, *Boundaries*. I put Jesus aside. I lay down my bible. I still have my parents morals running through me, my grandparents and my Founders of these United States. Those I listed formed my opinions, formed my respect to love honor and obey my Mother and Fahter. Not one of them thumped a bible at me, Never! My Mother or Father would read things to me from it. Mostly Daddy becaue Mom had grown up Catholic and was not taught the bible but instead she had her rosary beads and knew which saint to speak to about her troubles. After graduating from a girls Catholic school, she left the Catholic Church in search of lifes answers.
When people talk about Dobson, Colton, Max Lucado, Billy Graham, Casey Treat, Creflo Dollar, Fulton Sheen (catholic priest helping millions through television)Robert Schuller in a negative way, I turn away. Jerry Falwell, well...he can be so opposite of what a true loving christian or any man of faith, that he knocks me over rolling my eyes. Pat Robertson too. Good man, and he did admit he went overboard about God Speaking To Him about running for president.
This is another case of writing something without doing a full and complete investigation into a man. James Dobson while on CNN with Larry King broke a bit when he spoke to us right after 9-11. He has raised his children, has grandchilren and is older now and he himself has said, when his last child left home it tugged deeply into his heart. He like millions of Mother's and Father's just hoped, just prayed he had in someway given his last son leaving the nest...tools and perhaps a map which many like me call, The Bible.
Arnold, you are a good man. I had to part with you about morals and christians. I also want you to know, I did not believe there was a God many times along my path when I made stupid mistakes, lied or cheated in someway to be accepted into, *society* and kept a deep secret. All families have a secret, a shame, mistakes, and sins. You know as well as I do that your era had closets and certainly so did mine. Somethings a taboo, sweep it away.
I saw a movie tonight that had me laughing, crying, and even felt the sweetness I have not had the pleasure of in over eight years...desire, sexual arousal and the movie was absolutely classy. Guys would call it a Chick Flick. No, it was a couple flick done in real good taste. A man having a desire to feel life again, to bring out his inner feelings by going to learn how to dance. Your Stephi I believe would love this just because of the sweetness of a trip you shared with me going to see your son. The lines were outstanding at times. Richard Gere did it again. He like Clint Eastwood and a few other good men want to bring true glamour and story lines with decent morals. They know some sexy scenes are important but this was first class all the way.
I'm not up in arms over Ashcroft the Morman leaving. I'm not up in arms over Powell stepping down and having Rice beside Bush. I still am old fashioned and prefer my president to have a first lady that is the "Wind beneath his Wings". Not a Hillary that wanted power soo much that I really believe she grabbed his testicals when she feared he was more popular, more in the limlight, made the mistake of the affair and instead of forgiving? She grabbed those testicals to pull him down for her selfish reasons. He hurt her absolutely but she told many women this is how you keep your man. Hold those puppies tight.
It took me years to come out how I was a young girl to give a baby up through adoption...the Unwed Mother...Unwed Father? You came around and so did other's faster than I did to gays getting married. Mine was an uncomfort of a *boundary*. I even thought I might be a bigot and then inside I knew I was not. Changes, and taxes, and medical problems also weighed on my mind.
President Bush is a christian and rahter you believe it or not, thousands have been going back into a church since September 11th. There is a church in Seattle, the Blue State/ mix of Red that has just one church I know of that has tripled in size since then. Casey Treat has over 7,000 members and they are expanding. Houston, Texas. Joel Osteen, over 8,000 and building a satellite church. California, Robert Schuller....millions and the first minister to go into Russia when the wall fell down. Jack Hayford, millions worldwide, Max Lucado and on and on.
I'm watching the president for other things. Yes, I want to see a difference in Roe vs. Wade, yes I want gay people to take their case to their state. And this country is still wanting religion in their families. I found some good old Morals, Love, Honor and Decent desires and feelings people still hunger for in that move, Shall We Dance. Hysterical and the good ole' days with glamour and class.
By the
I respect how in our country we can agree to disagree. I just hope people will realize abortion, gay marriage and I guess race is till at a point where people need to realize something.
Don't shove something unfamiliar at me. Don't expect because you believe abortion is soley a woman's choice and if you don't agree with gay marriage...you are wrong. No, Nadda...go about changes with respect for others that have their own values. A woman if she possibly can should absolutely talk to the man that she had sex with and is now pregnant. It IS NOT JUST A WOMANS CHOICE and I believe that is why many of our men politicians seem to want to help women now. They too have to have their conscience involved. With that thought, I believe men too are showing women they really do hear them. They really are accepting that it is their sexual drive that brought about a child.
Stop Pushing...Stop Being So Blatent and Loud Mouth telling people your opinions, and shoving. You end up looking and sounding foolish. I learned that a long time ago. Instead, go gather your facts. How else do you think I found hundreds of adoptees, birthfather's and adoptive parents? Be like a private investigator. Gather info. then go places where you find other's that are of the same thought, the same ideals.
There really is something called...Dignity. I love my Mother and Father for teaching me that. Did they make *social*, moral, mistakes and do wrong at times trying to raise us? Yep! Do I need to discuss their mistakes or am I a better person to look into their era and grow, learn and mature. My Father was by my side when I found my son after 20 years. My Mother was not and it hurt terribly for a bit and then I had the decency to realize what she endured as a young girl.
One more thing...About those two bible thumpers, Falwell and Robertson. Please don't judge us christians on those two. I would prefer the hope and love and forgiveness of Billy Graham and the Great Catholic Priest, Fulton Sheen, ahhh, what a kind and funny soul with some great laughs. We get reruns of him and he has made a better man, woman out of me too. We all need a rock to lean on, or a crutch, or a four leaf clover. We all want greener pastures over yonder!
...I was speaking to ALL persons that desire change...
Carefully look at yourself, your motives and your reasons. Think things through, before pushing and opening your mouth so blatently. I know from experience, and the era's thus far I have been a part of personally. Speak in kindess and understanding on issues that are deeply implanted in each of us....get feedback especially from those that are opposed, or fearful, or have that stubborn blind fold on.
Human Nature is to balk, when an important social and moral issue is brought out. Read your newspapers, magazines, books on matters that concern you and of course those you hope to help. If I open door number one, what will come out. Will it offend that person on the other side of that door. And if it will offend then you sure better have your investigative resources, statistics, opinions of all that that issue will bring about.
No offense taken. I know you well enough by now, via our extensive correspondence, to understand that you weren't personalizing your comments in my direction.
And yes, I can understand the motives not only of heartfelt christians of all kinds, but also of the anti-abortion and evangelical political leaders possibly typified by Dobson.
Nevertheless, I hope they will all understand secularists like me, or the numerous christians, jews, hindus, et al, who support the right of a woman to choose not to bring a pregnancy to term, for a variety of valid reasons. Let me spell one of them out for you.
I think you are old enough to remember the Thalidomide babies of the late 1950s and early 1960s, and the case of Sherri Finkbine, who in 1962 was host of a childrens' TV show broadcast from her home city of Phoenix AZ. If not, let me refresh your memory.
Thalidomide, a drug introduced in (then) West Germany in the mid 1950s, was popularly used at that time as a sleep inducer for pregnant women. Then it was found that numerous pregnant women who had taken this drug were giving birth to grossly deformed children, many with shrunken or completely missing limbs.
Sherri Finkbine, then a young woman in her early 30s, was pregnant with what would have been her fifth child in 1962 and had been using Thalidomide to induce sleep regardless of pregnancy-related pains. After a gynecological examination, her physician informed her that she was in serious danger of giving birth to a deformed child, and counseled aborting the fetus.
No hospital in Phoenix, or anywhere elsewhere else in the country, would help her because of the draconian anti-abortion laws then in effect.
Therefore, Sherri flew to Sweden and had the operation performed there. A post-operative examination of the aborted fetus confirmed her worst fears. Had she carried her child to term, it would have been born with no legs and only one arm.
Upon her return to Phoenix and her announcement to the local news media of what she had done, Sherri was fired from her job as host of the "Romper Room" childrens' television show. (Their reasoning? How could a woman who murdered her own "child" be allowed to host a childrens' television show?) Her husband Robert was suspended from his public school teaching job. Both received continuous and abusive hate mail and hate phone calls, including death threats. Their children were shunned and threatened.
That year, 1962, I was a 28-year-old fresh out of college with the first of two degrees. I had been a Republican for the 10 preceding years, and had never questioned any of their prevailing social philosophies.
Even so, studying the experience of that woman and her family, was for me a defining moment. Because regardless of anything I then thought about politics, religion, society or anything else, that I would always support the right of a woman to terminate a pregnancy at any time for whatever reason she thought it necessary to undertake such a serious surgical or medical procedure.
I am still a Republican 42 years later, and a more intensive Republican than I was in that year of John Kennedy, the Cuban missile crisis, and the publica degradation of Sherri Finkbine.
But party affiliation or not, I should wish that any persons, regardless of political party or religious outlook, who would have compelled Sherri Finkbine to give birth to a baby missing both legs and one arm, should be compelled to walk through their lives with 80-pound millstones permanently chained around their necks.
Because I believe in nothing now, except possibly a bright pure vision of justice.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb
This election was once again cruel. It was thrown around spewing things that were hard to take for many of us. The Kerry with the Viet Nam, The Bush with the missing leave of absence. The Democrats struggling to for sure this time around stand up and be counted.
It's over. It's been hashed and rehashed over and over and over. The Rebublicans with their christian high morals, the southern gun owners.
Religion was brought into it due to morals. Catholics have been through hell and then Kerry makes his religion and his faith now become a part of the election.
Bush has always been upfront about his roots in christian beliefs and then that was thrown around. But before that was thrown around the Morman Attorney General was knocked around for his religion, his morals.
I spoke about my daughter being reminded that the democrats started the welfare work and she should vote democrat. A son serving us and another son trying to keep on top of things as a, well, he calls it citizen journalist. Those of us that have stayed with Dean know he strives for truth, honesty, integrity and he has a lot of courage to come out with his struggles. He states he is not a christian, but he is like you and Tim the Soldier. They call it Brights, no belief in God. Belief in Science and who can answer, "The Big Bang!?!"
I was and am addressing morals and boundaries, decency, respect and honor and freedom, is what this election was to millions of people.
Abortion, stem cell, marriage reevaluated to include gay people and of course morals christian or not.
ALL OF THOSE ARE IMPORTANT!!! TOP I Believe was WOT. That quite naturally, humanly brings about, MORALS. Are we Killing or are we Liberating? Is it our duty to make those choices? This was the most important election of my lifetime.
Will George Bush Disappoint Evangelicals? I do not know, nobody knows yet. The Morman is gone, the Texas hispanic has come upon the horizon. A woman has replaced a man, Rumsfield. A black woman heads security now. A fantastic black man, Powel is gone now and yes he too was/is a man of faith.
Well, it looks like we have a full deck of what everybody wanted.
I understand the gay couple, I understand the unplanned pregnancy, or rape or Sherri Finkbine. That is exactly what I was getting at. A young teen girl not fully developed. My State, My County has the highest rate of unplanned pregnancies age 15 and under. Or a woman fully developed in hormones and womanhood by about 20. What does she do? Abort or adoption? I will not get into any legal debates regarding this issue. I made my choice with the aid of my Grandmother (rich one overseas, not the poor humble grandma) and my Father.
That choice is a most painful choice either way. Roe vs. Wade is here now and has been for decades now. Women that have aborted unlike the woman mentioned above in that era had to depend on the gyno. doctor. We did not have the sonograms, the absolutes that are available today. Countless women that have had abortions are sorry and they live with that choice for the rest of their lives as well as the child given to adoption.
I hear the reasons for abortion, I loved so very deeply a female in my own lineage, my very roots decide to have an abortion and another one who felt she could not raise a child in her situation.
I am/was a public speaker and spoke about giving a child up for adoption and in not one interview did I ever say I am against or for abortion. I will not judge another woman, period. I was very good and I am proud to say that but when pro-life came to me to speak due to my adoption and reunion I seriously considered it. I could not. I love my women in my lineage, my heritage, my dear girlfriends and I chose honor. I am not a Bright, I am not a unbeliever, I am a christian that follows my experiences good or bad that always leads me, personally back to Christ. Christ does not condemn women. Christ does not condemn in any shape, fashion or form...Period. People do.
If I fail or if I succeed on my journey I am loved, period.
Morals are not just because of people of faith. Morals ARE what GUIDES US through our lives. Always have, always will. People hurt and condemn and judge, not God. People hurt and judge, if you are an unbeliever, or a bright.
Blue States, Red States...we are all searching. Some want a better justice system, some want greener pastures, some are just content to be exactly where they are at.
A question was asked, tremendous answers came about. I come and I go and I have a son that will tell me if and when I should go from his journalist blog. I added that you must do your homework, you must investigate before you jump to a choice, before you speak blantently. If you're mad, GOOD! Get in the ring and fight for a right. A loud clanging bell will turn away the very people you so desire to be on your team.
FWIW...thanks for letting me sprew. I prefer kindness and Men Learn to Dance. Dean was funny when he said, White people should not dance. A man by the name of Bryan came in and said to learn to dance is sexy! Dean loved Gene Kelly! HEY, MEN ARE LISTENING from their bedrooms beside their wives, to the boardrooms, to the White House. I will prefer what we have had until Hillary grabbed testes out of jealousy due to her husbands success. I want a lady that is the Wind Beneath MY Presidents Wings!
Roe vs. Wade will be changed but for the better due to the advancements in medical science.
It's a fragile boundary of when or if or why along with stem cells. Looking reviewing and yes morals and values, honesty and integrity will be the big picture still, until science? Or perhaps God?
(Casey Tompkins, old buddy. You probably know more about flight than most folks who comment on Dean's blogs. If you are reading this, set the lady straight about lift v gravity and thrust vs drag. Or if I'm wrong, set ME straight.)
Back to you, Janelle. Why do so many of us think we have to line up solidly on every issue supported by the activists of one major party or the other?
You all know already that I support abortion rights. You can safely assume that I support the usefulness of harvesting human stem cells for vital medical research. Having thought about homosexual unions, I came to the conclusion a few months ago that government should play no role in determining the nature of any sexual relationship relationship between two consenting adults, or any contractual bond between them.
"But how can you consider yourself a conservative or right-winger and say these things?" is what I hear all too often.
Well, for starters, I own and shoot government-registered automatic weapons, and I advocate the right of any citizen with no crimimal record to carry firearms for self-protection. And I agree to no government restriction on the sale of firearms of whatever type to any citizen who has no criminal record.
And, in continuance, I insist on having a government that will maintain proper armaments, a well-trained military, and an appropriate foreign policy, all for purposes of protecting our country and its citizens from attack anywhere, and to quickly destroy any foreign enemy who threatens this country with with destruction, massive or otherwise. That, and I would either force the re-organization of the present united nations organization to something more useful, or scrap it altogether. And my values are that the highest calling of a citizen is to serve in the armed forces of his country. Even to be put in harm's way, if the situation requires it.
And I think that American citizens are entitled to keep what they earn, to "use or abuse" in accordance with their own foresight, needs, taste or whims, as Roman emperor Augustus once put it. Which means I want taxes at all level of government pared to the bone, with the role of government reduced to nothing more than was defined for us in the original United States Constitution. Along with this, I agree with people like George W Bush, who emphasize that the United States can truly be a society of fairness and relative equality when we become an "ownership society". And I think that with the exception of serious hardship cases, I would distribute no welfare payments of any kind.
I could go on and on about this, but in knowing what you do about me, tell me why anyone would seriously try to label me a liberal?
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Not that it would change my opinion of the man one way or the other. I just am curious as to where this notion of him as a Mormon springs from.
This heathen idol-worshipper celebrates both the deep Christian faith and moral conviction of the Grand Matriarch of Dean's World (other than the Queen Herself) and the independent thought and noble integrity of my favorite non-theist, the Grand Patriarch of Dean's World (other than the King Himself). Both of you embody all that has made America such a great place to call my country.
That men, such as Arnold Harris, take a pro-choice stand on the abortion issiue, shows what I have long remarked: the noble chivalry which men of honor have always felt toward women, especially in our Western high culture. That women, such as the Queen, are pro-life, shows the chivalry of women toward their own children.
By the way, Arnold Harris's stand on homosexual unions is consistent with the individualist principles and values he has always articulated and embodied, and, while it pleased me enormously to see him take that stand, it did not at all surprise me.
I myself was unmitigatedly pro-choice for many years, but after listening to arguments on both sides, have changed my mind to a considerable degree. Abortion is a very difficult question as it involves two conflicting rights, that rights of the woman and the rights of her baby.
The whole spectrumology is reversed. I'm against abortion for liberal reasons and for homosexual marriage for conservative reasons. I have now come to agree with Dean on both questions, they should be left to the states. For some time, I have been contemplating a Human Life Amendment to extend Fourteenth Amendment protections to the unborn, at least after the first few weeks of pregnancy. But that doesn't look politically feasable for the forseeable future, so instead I have now concluded that it would be best to remove Roe vs. Wade and throw the whole controversy back to each state to resolve as its inhabitants and their representatives see most fit. I'm not enamored of that compromise, but it looks like the best we can do at this point.
I now agree with Dean that Roe vs. Wade [1972] was a disastrous decision on many levels, and even worse all the subsequent decisions of the Supreme and various lower courts that have made abortion "on demand", for any reason or no reason at all, right up to the moment of birth, and not only legalized but also subsidized by government, the legally untouchable status quo, defended to the death (of others) by NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, and today's Democratic party.
First and most obvious, all the millions of dead babies, fetuses, remarkably human-looking blobs of cells, or what have you.
Second, the "guilt-by-association" with all those dead babies of the whole concept of an independent judiciary, of the right to privacy, and of a whole cluster of logically unrelated issues such as homosexual marriage, pornography, etc.. Roe vs. Wade sits like a ticking time bomb waiting to kill all the crucial landmark decisions in defense of the sacred right to privacy that are now falsely associated with it, Griswold vs. Connecticut [1965] (protecting the right of a married couple to use contraceptives in the privacy of their own home), Stanley vs. Georgia [1969] (protecting the right of a man or woman to possess "obscene", i.e., sexy pictures, books, or films in the privacy of his or her own home), Lawrence and Garner vs. Texas [2003] (protecting the right of consenting adult men or women to make love in the privacy of their own home).
None of these are anything more than tangentially related to abortion. Abortion differs from contraception, homosexuality, masturbation, and all other relations between consenting adults because, by definition, it involves a very non-consenting non-adult. It is, therefore, an issue that must be dealt with separately from all these other issues. That's how I see it.
Yes I do know what I am talking about when it comes to a woman. I often bring out my romantic side, my goffy side and darn good horse sense. A woman here called it
Wisdom. Her name is JaneM...So There!
I know how to fly an aircraft Arnold. I took flying lessons in a Cessna 150 here in San Antonio, Texas. My flight instructor was a retired Officer and A Mexican Gentleman! No, that is not being racist calling a mexican man born in Mexico, A Mexican! Willy Alva was a retired Airforce Pilot and he had trained hundreds of pilots in the flight simulator at Kelly Air Force Base. The wind is very important in a smaller aircraft like the 172. Alerons are checked before each and every flight, the nose, the wings, the things that birds get caught in, can't think right now. You are correct in the technical aspects. But we would do a check around and look at the wind sock off in the distance to see which way it is flowing. I was trained to get my VFR, the same one John Kennedy, Jr. received. He failed to check out his weather conditions and could only fly visually, not IFR.
Why do you spose' Dean likes to jump out of Airplanes? His Uncle did in the Green Beret special unit? What ever. I was being romantic. If you or Steven for that matter and even da big kid had paid attention to my first few sentences I said I would step in this in a different way. I also talked about the era's women and men have gone through and why and how morals, decency, and honor and obey and rules and regulations came about and carefully put Astericks before words such as, *Morals*, *Boundaries* and *eras*. I said I come from experience from my grandparents, my parents and my founders of these United States.
You guys quack me up...quack, quack!
I am not a rebublican, a right winger, a conservative? Well, Dean tried to help me with this a few years ago and I said, OK. If you say so since I am a christian and I have feelings about our border to the south and want to uphold the legal immigration. Dean was really making me laugh along with Rosemary. I had not been stimulated by people that cared about politics in my time from 1996-Dec.2003. They gave me that title and I said, well, sure it sounds good. Then a bit of time passed and I spoke to Dean and we talked about abortion. He told me Rosemary was 100% against it. I admired that and still do. Then Dean and I discussed the fact that we, Dean and me could probably write up a bill of some sort to allow abortion by a certain stage. Being just a whole lot older than him...Ha, 16 years. I had been around the block like Jenny- J Lo. I knew of girls that had an abortion and why. I knew of a horrible butch up job done in a family member. Do you follow how I am being decent, and using respect and omiting a name or using a direct reference out of decency? Maybe it was a cousin, or an aunt or a whoever?
I do believe I was trying to answer the question I was so darn tired of hearing about angelical christians, catholic, presb., on and on being told people of a certain faith did not mean we were right wing conservatives, was George W. going to hurt the angel christians? I specifically said.
I am taking a different step here out of experience and eras of my life thus far. Morals and values and society and our roots make us too. It does not belong to the believers, the non believers and the Brights....(that makes me laugh Dean, I'm sorry but it does. Please don't pounce on me but here is one little point about human nature and *society* I find so amusing)
1. You're a Bright? I never thought you were
not.
2. Gay in a different era was happy.
3. Name it, the race and color have changed
to be politically correct.
4. I always just said I was Heinz 57, well I
dropped that after this election.
So, you see right there my age and my walk thus far.
I have not said on this blog that I am aware of, that I was a right wing, or a republican. I don't see why being a christian is a moral right, it is also a moral left, a moral moderate, a moral liberal.
What am I missing? I have honor, decency, integrity, morals I believe in even if you take Jesus away and the bible. I was shaped and formed by my parents in the early years and their parents. We now have DNA.
I have old fashioned ideas that I hope to give to my daughter. She like me had a rough start and became a young Mother. We have loved and fought like two cats in a cat fight. Raging hormones for her and none for me due to the early hysterctomy so my system was turned topsy turvy. We are working together to try to teach my grand baby daughter, no...she is 14 now. We are looking at what we think went wrong and the things we really did do that was right. We don't want an unplanned pregnancy. Abortion can mess up a woman in her uterus, and a young girl like my Tiffany, not fully formed with her hormones and body can have her insides torn to early.
I then said it took me time to think about the gay marriage. I spoke to Dean so intimately, I felt he was right there holding my hands. He was understnading my quandry and some fears I held.
It took me quite sometime to really look into why I should not vote for Kerry. I tried in earnest to express her in the beginning and so did Dean. He did go to Viet Nam. People said it was only four months. That did not hit me like others. I knew even one day in combat could kill you. I asked Dean to please send me some good sites for Democrats.
I will also tell you Teresa Kerry was not what I believe, I say, I believe was what this country needed to heal our wounds from 9-11. I wanted a committed couple that I could feel sincerely helped one another. Yes, I said I like a woman to be the wind beneath a mans wing. Let me clarify that a bit more. I do believe a husband must first love himself in the sense that he is comfortable in his skin, his manhood. I do not think that is selfish. He is then able to give more to the wife and vice versa and then the two give support and stand together in making decisions for the children. I did not see Teresa as a helpmate but instead as a woman that lacked a bit of class in her off handed remarks. I also felt we needed a strong role model for our sons, a strong role model for our daughters. Hillary and Bill were a great couple in the beginning and it got all turned around.
Boundaries are important. We established bountaries when we formed these United States. We had border boundaries and I hold boundaries dear to me. (I didn't say heart, Arnold). I want the shock and in your face garbage to stop. I want ot read a journalist I know took time to do his investigating before he writes his piece. The first one on the air has many times been made a fool.
You Arnold, are a brilliant writer and do not tell me I don't know what I am talking about. You are strong and verbal. You take a stand and there you stay unless someone you love like your own son, said...Dad, why should a gay person not be allowed to me married?
Why then must I be put in a politcal category I sincerely do not see myself in. I vote after I have done some investigating and try hard to turn from the stupid insults and vulgar language thrown about in cheap gossip. It's mighty fun do get peoples views and I can sincerely give a very good debate/ well maybe not now but I did and I went from Toastmasters to an invatation only, Texas Spekers Bureau.
You guys did not catch how I said, a movie I saw moved me in a sensual way like I have not felt in over eight years. I had a friend and we were always in a role I do not wish to talk about. That movie was what I want to come back to picture shows. Class, dignity, true simple glamour, sexy tango dance where two are dancing as one. I am artistic, I am a lady, I am alone for reasons I chose for both parties.
If you really are listening to a woman then you need to learn to dance with her. Now you figure out if I mean that literally or fantasy or desire for couples to bring back the magic.
I prefer to speak in public and in all forms of media exactly the way my father did. Dean, there is a part in the movie I am asking men to go see, even if you are single, widow or the wife has no interest. That dance I did with my Daddy but of course it was done in all respect and decency for I am his daughter. He was an artist in music, dancing, writing and appreciating great art. The picture I juust sent with PaPah in a suit speaks volumes for heis gentleman ways...Look at his pocket and you will see, a hankerchef for his lady, his daughters were always tucked in his fine suits. You said you like Fred Astaire, or Gene Kelly...you never saw, Everard Vern Cruea take his wife to the ballroom floor or take me to a teen center where he checked it out first and danced with me there and later in visits to El Paso to see my precious Father.
If you want changes, go about it the way I did because society at large, red and blue need time to think things through. Investigate, investigate and as the day we sat at your kitchen table, we felt we could help a woman with an unplanned pregnancy.
Science has shown now the inside of a woman's womb. I can not say what is right or what is wrong. I would hope what your sister and I are doing with your 14 year old niece that wants all the dark make-up and scanty clothes as her peers, we are not pulling to tight, letting go to much but allowing her to be herself. We know too much nudity and now even two and three year old girls are wearing the g-string. Dean, you can say, I will do this and I will do that.
I said it, and other parents said it, rich parents, poor and middle class. It is a delicate boundary from inside our homes to the boundaries around our counties, to state, to these United States.
I listened guys, I did. Sometimes and even often times we are so focused on our views that we really do not listen. I started out laughing and I am still feeling so good thanks to Dean, Arnold and Steven.
Dean, I am pretty sure AShcroft was Morman, but you might be right...I did not research. I was going on memory and how awful he was treated! I am hoping he will appear in a fine appointment and in truth, I am sad to see Colin Powell go. He is a mighty decent, honorable man of integrity, respectful of society even more than this ole gal due to his heritage. I hate to see him go but politics must play their games.
Thank you. Beautiful and profound, all that you wrote. You and Arnold Harris -- excellent.
And, yes, Ashcroft is a Pentacostal Christian, Assemblies of God denomination. He would not be happy to be called a Morman.
JaneM, this is where you cracked me up. You did not think to much of Sean but you said his hair was scarey, I think. But it was when you named some other radio or tv talk guy, you said he had intelligent hair. I giggled at that so much and you loved Ann Coulter. I sure liked her too and enjoyed the way she could slay a man, mostly the self righteous. I just began to think she was too mean. But the intelligent hair? So I asked you if it meant a combed straight short haircut, or a smart (he is rich) hair cut like Donald Trump, with the comb over hiding bald hairdo. Or perhaps it was a haircut like our countries mayor, Rudy. He stopped the comb over, let the bald come through and combed his hair on each side now. Then off I go telling people I was the kind of Mom, (UUgh, poor Dean) that combed their hair and put the straight part and of course that was due to my Dads fine haircuts, but he had blonde thick and even a wave, sorta like Ronald Reagan. I was the Mom that licked her hands and would pull down my boys cowlicks! YUCK! How many Moms have done that though in all seriousness! I wanted my little Rascals to look neat and clean and didn't want them teased like Alfalfa!
I forgot to mention to Arnold above that I was a gun fun lovin' gal too. But I had written how stupid I was, niave when by US VET, US Border patrol took this gal into the gun range where our border patrol did practice. I'd seen stuff on television and saw those headphones on but, dah....We go walking in and I am sooo excited to shoot my first gun. Around 23 years of age. I go inside where all them handsome uniformed guys are(yeah, ladies like a uniform on a guy...side thought in a moment) standing there getting ready to shoot. They have the head bands, ear muffs on and I looked at Gary and not but a few seconds later did I jump! I say, "Gary, why do all you guys and cops on tv wear those things in here, it's sound proof!?!" BANG BANG BANG BANG!!!! I jumped and grabbed my ears! He and a few of his friends start laughing hysterically, "Hey Renick, now you know why we tease you about your blonde wife!" Ha ha ha ha ha, all of em! Well, that got me goat, smart alecks! "Renick, you show me how to hold this gun those smart alecks made me mad! He is still laughing with some tears running down his cheecks. So he shows me how to hold a gun and cup my hand s around it and line up the thingy ma bobs...Oh, here I go again. He shows me the stance. ""OK, LET HER RIP!!! BANG BANG BANG....the target of a mans head comes rolling into view and HAHAHAHAH! Guess how many bullseyes I got!?!?
So yes, even gun totters were labeled christian right wingers and country bumkins!!! I will shoot you a copy of me with my ear muffs on Dean, where in the 90's around some women pilots and men as well we went and shot some machine guns!
So when we got off topic and concentrated on christians and gays and guns I had to tell ya guys quacked me up! Gun Lovin' christian lovin' gay lovin' country lovin' music from the south meant we were right leanin' folks! I was so tired of an article written where a man quoted Dobson and went on down the road spewing about Bush and us ANGEL Christians!!!!Dobson's field was in psycology and he helped millions of couples, teens in crisis, Get Tough On Love. Yes, he is a Man, A husband, a father and a grandfather. He broke a bit after 9-11 and was concerned for our morals BECAUSE of the 10 Commandments being pushed out from a outside judges courtroom. Americans were being told when you say, The Plege of Alligance, to remove God and what happened with the teens at Columbine. He loves how our country was founded on christian morals and it was, period. One held out because he was a unitarian but did lean on the sermons of the day. Colsen went from prison to bible. Guilt by association due to being with the wrong crowd. Parents fear that and here was a man that proved, Guilty by Association. His friends robbed, he was outside in car. Served time, prison to bible. He along with Johhny Cash starting ministering to inmates.
(side part, he he...guys, dress in a uniform for yer' lady)Ahhh, hush up, just joshing...go see Gere, the art, the laughter, really guys, laughter. Men trying to keep *boundaries* as men and not seen, ha ha ha ha ha!?! Great ole' fashion tasteful and sensuous....Woah...Gere, in Tux, fine wrinkles, a red rose....dance!!! Bryan said men should dance it is sexy!
Thanks funny JaneM...I shall look through hairstyle books for intelligent hair for myself! I could care less when I spell wrong and Arnold told me never to worry cause he knows the DRUGS I am on and more about the medicine still have not got my shots. That is bad!!! First run low on an anitbiotic due to anthrax, then flue shots, then my Humeria. He knows about a gray walker, and my hero Lance Armstrong and he gives me encouragement and strenght and great advice. He is a romantic, he sure knows how to use descriptives of his beautiful drive to see his son. The fine linen on the table where he sat with his Stephi.
So There!
Loud clangy bell, in your face wanting people to come to his/her ideas on a social issue? Who comes to mind!?! SCREAMING DEAN the running democrat! Get mad, yes by golly but control yourself especially if you are wanting people to accept you and your *social* changes. Gather your supporters and have a passion. If you want to shout, do it just watch your boundaries....Love those pics of Dean and even Al, sure di like him at one time.