Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Annoying Canadians

Urgh. Well, I seem to have touched a nerve with my note yesterday about Carolyn Parrish and my rather offhand comment about a "personal boycott" of Canada. I certainly didn't mean that in the literal sense, and I certainly wasn't encouraging others. It's just that my wife and I don't visit Windsor in Canada anymore, because we got our feelings hurt. I didn't literally mean we don't talk to Canadians or buy any Canadian products. It's just that the allure of visiting Canada is gone.

And it wasn't just because of nasties like Parrish. It was from a whole year of debate wherein we saw much nastiness in the Canadian press as well as from the Canadian government, and what looked (from here) like a few decent Canadians and a lot of really mean Canadians who seemed to not just think "no, we don't want to be part of the operation to liberate Iraq from a mass murdering tyrant because we don't think that's in our best interests," but rather, "America is evil."

It's just what it looked like from here, gang.

Obviously I still have Canadian friends, and I still have a number of Canadians on my blogroll. I also tend to forget everyone doesn't read and remember every single thing I've ever written, so folks probably don't remember that I wrote Thankful for Canada back in 2002, and a slightly snarkier piece called Hey Canada, Don't Make Us Kick Your Ass, Okay? which was humorous but in which I said all kinds of nice things about Canada. Still. Perhaps more Canadians ought to hear that they hurt a lot of Americans' feelings as a nation. If it surprises you, well, okay, but it's true. Last year, in this discussion of Bali, my late friend Gary Utter spoke for a lot of us (the discussion turned to Canada even though it was about Bali. Go figure.) So, for you and you and you and you and you and you and you and any other Canadians wondering, no I'm not literally "boycotting Canada." But there's this whole "we thought they had our backs but they spit on us instead" feeling some of us still have, and visiting the place just doesn't seem worth it anymore. Parrish just kind of reopened those feelings for me. [shrug]

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M. Scott Eiland (mail):
Whenever I see a particularly infuriating comment from a Canadian with a particularly big mouth and virulent contempt for all things American, and find myself tempted to tar them all with a broad brush, I take a deep breath and take a few moments to read "The Americans" one more time. It reminds me that--in spite of some of the more loathsome souls to be found up there--I'm quite happy to have Canada as a next-door neighbor.
11.19.2004 4:08am
superhawk (mail) (www):
It really surprised me when in the immediate aftermath of 9/11-couldn't have been more than a week-I saw a town hall forum from Vancouver (Canada) where speaker after speaker got up and said that America had it coming and they didn't care WHO hit us, we had no right to go off and hit them back.

It seems as if all the pent up frustration and animosity Canadaiens have had towards us has now just been brought out in the open. Lefty politicians seem to be playing on that feeling and have met with some success using it to further their electoral aims.

I can remember 1981 when it came out that Canada had bravely helped us during the Iranian hostage crisis by hiding some Americans and eventually helping them to escape. There seemed to be at that time a real bond between the two countries. Of course, it didn't hurt that Brian Mulroney was PM and that he was a great admirer of Reagan.

Something's happened over the last twenty years. It'd be interesting if someone traced what went bad.
11.19.2004 4:22am
Will B. (mail) (www):
Dean, give our neighbor to the North a break. The poor people can't even figure out whether they're British or French.
11.19.2004 6:39am
Andrew Ian Dodge (mail) (www):
Dean it was a fair enough point. And we all know people like Colby Cosh and Paul Jane are giving that stupid woman a verbal pasting.
11.19.2004 7:56am
Jane (mail) (www):
It really woke me up when an angry mob of Candians attacked a bus full of little kid hockey players and they started booing the US national anthum at sporting events.
11.19.2004 8:18am
urthshu (mail) (www):
Can't forget Flea. He's been doing a largely thankless job of keeping the more friendly Canadian voices front &center, especially with his Winston Review &Red Ensign features.
Maybe my comment doesn't add a whole lot to yours Dean, but I still wanted to say "thanks, Flea".
11.19.2004 11:17am
frangie:
Oh courses there are Canadians who are not happy with the anti US rhetoric! And thank God for them! But far too many don't even bother to read more "conservative" views. Canada has ONE conservative leaning paper and that is the national post. It's sad that our relationship with them has deteriorated, but I think it's been a one sided deterioration. Americans are waking up to the fact that many countries have brainwashed their citizens into blaming the US for all the problems of the world. What brilliant PR! Think about it, if the people of a country are focused on the US for every problem, the politicians of their country are able to do as they please, in the name of it not being "American style"!


and these countries call us stupid!
11.19.2004 12:56pm
Chris Reid (www):
I apologize, Dean. I'm certainly not going to try to lambaste you for not choosing to visit Canada. As I told you in IM, I just get very riled up whenever I hear about people "boycotting" nations. And it did seem at first that your post was talking about that.

I will say that I hope one day you will once again consider Canada a friendly place to visit, whatever needs to happen to accomplish that. And when that day comes, we'll meet in Windsor (I've never been there myself) and I'll buy you a pepsi. Deal?
11.19.2004 1:00pm
Chris Reid (www):
Frangie, the Toronto Sun is also a very conservative paper. The day before the election this past summer, they ran a front page article on why the prospect of voting Liberal was "scary", and almost the entire paper was full of nothing but pro-Conservative, anti-Liberal opinion pieces.
11.19.2004 1:02pm
Dean Esmay (www):
Chris, no prob.

As for the Toronto Sun: isn't that kind of a lowbrow tabloid?

Still, at least it's there. My understanding of Canadian politics is that Torontos pretty much the center of power for Paul Martin's Liberal Party. Or at least one of the big ones.
11.19.2004 2:04pm
cherrick (mail):
You may not be boycotting Canada, but I certainly am. I will never travel to Canada and I will not buy anything made in Canada. And, given an opportunity, say in the voting booth, to F' Canada, I will avail myself every time.

Just two days ago, my wife and I were food shopping. I forced her to put back an entire bag of tomatoes, because each tomato was labeled "Product of Canada".

FYI, we do the same thing for the French and Germans. Give me an alternative, and I won't buy anything from you blighters.

Quit apologizing and join Americans who've had it with our gonad-fee neighbors to the north.

F' the lot of you.
11.19.2004 2:23pm
Scott Kirwin (mail):
Having lived abroad for a good part of my life, I have seen the winds of anti-Americanism come and go. I still remember arguing with a Kiwi who said that America should have intervened in Rwanda, and that we didn't because we were racist.

I remember a smiliar argument applied to Bosnia. "You Americans aren't sending troops because there isn't oil there."

It's amazing how things have changed in less than 10 years. Now we are derided for our "imperialism".

I have learned that foreigners - especially those from the Anglosphere - really don't understand America. Not the America of Hollywood or the NY Times, but the average America that really doesn't make much noise or gather much press.

I come from that America, and I am amazed at how the people there really feel stabbed in the back by Canada and our "allies" in Europe. What the people from those nations do not understand is that Americans won't forget.

Things will change.

America will be called on to intervene again - whether its to prevent sectarian violence in France, or some other 3rd World S**thole that has grabbed the world's media attention, and Americans will say, "Sorry, but no."

Roots of a virulent strain of isolationism are being set deeply into the ground by the actions of our so-called "friends". After 9-11 was the time to put up or shut-up, and our "friends" did neither.

People in the heartland won't forget this. And Canadians might want to consider that the next time they decide to spout off.
11.19.2004 2:52pm
Michael Demmons (mail) (www):
America will be called on to intervene again - whether its to prevent sectarian violence in France, or some other 3rd World S**thole that has grabbed the world's media attention, and Americans will say, "Sorry, but no."


Scott: That's the thing about America that makes it such a wonderful place to be.

We rarely say "no" when people are in trouble.
11.19.2004 2:56pm
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
One of my favorite bloggers, Mark Wickens, is also Canadian. He is Objectivist and pro-American. Take a look at the beautiful pictures of his land and her cities he has on his side bar on the right.
11.19.2004 3:04pm
Chris Reid (www):
Dean, some people consider the Toronto Sun to be more tabloid-ish than the Star; but I predict much of that is bias because it's a conservative paper in such a liberal province. Personally, I don't read either paper so I couldn't really tell you. It's certainly not 100% tabloid though, if you know what I mean. It's not like they print stories about aliens impregnating celebrities and such...
11.19.2004 3:12pm
frangie:

scott said...

America will be called on to intervene again - whether its to prevent sectarian violence in France, or some other 3rd World S**thole that has grabbed the world's media attention, and Americans will say, "Sorry, but no."


I hope you're right scott. I don't like the fact that so many Americans have died for other countries freedom. It would be nice if someone else had the balls to step up for once. The UN, France, Germany, Canada are a bunch of freeloaders. And the US govt needs to stop playing so nice with these insects.

I probably would not make a very good diplomat.

lol
11.19.2004 3:46pm
Scott Kirwin (mail):
Michael
You don't realize how strong the isolationism is getting in the country. It's below the radar now beause its at the grassroots level.

Many on the Right mistake the public support for the war in Iraq as support for American internationalism. It's not. Many Americans are convinced that it's in America's long-term interest, and will sacrifice their children to make America safer.

But beyond blatant American self interest? You are forgetting what it took to get Americans involved in WW2. So are the Europeans.

Europe (and Canada) is playing with fire, and will eventually become the battleground between radical Islam and secularism. Once it does, I do not see American support to back our European allies again.

There's too many burned bridges. Too many backstabs. Too much distrust.

Europe will be on its own.
11.19.2004 3:50pm
Scott Kirwin (mail):
Frangie

Now you see why I wasn't selected by the Foreign Service even though I passed the written exam! ;p
11.19.2004 3:51pm
Dan (mail) (www):
"People in the heartland won't forget this. And Canadians might want to consider that the next time they decide to spout off."

This Minnesotan still hasn't forgotten the incredibly unfair fishing rules Canada put in place in the late 90s in a bald attempt to drive US-based resorts in the Northwest Angle out of business. I haven't knowingly consumed a Canadian product since then.
11.19.2004 4:59pm