Dean's World

Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.

Also, Obama Hates Kittens

Alan Keyes says that Jesus wouldn't vote for his Democratic opponent.

Yeah, right on there, Alan. I'll bet also that Obama is one of those Democrats who kill kittens.

Won't you please vote for Keyes? Just think of the kittens!

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Mark Noonan (mail):
Hey, its a well-known fact that its we GOPers who have kittin-skin gloves....Keyes is getting waaaay off the ranch...
9.8.2004 5:05am
bdfaith (mail) (www):
As a resident of Illinois, I'll be writing in Mickey Mouse for Senator this year.
9.8.2004 6:10am
Mike (mail):
Mr. Keyes is right, Jesus wouldn't vote for Mr. Obama. IIRC, Jesus was a n Israelite, not an American citizen.

What.An.ASS.
9.8.2004 8:15am
Steven Malcolm Anderson (www):
I admire Vice President Cheney and his daughter Mary Cheney. I oppose Alan Keyes for his attack against the Vice President's daughter. I am proud to be selfish. Like a cat. Meow!
9.8.2004 3:49pm
Lucy (mail):
Keyes is a jerk. A tacky jerk. An arrogant tacky jerk. BUT ... he's also right. If you believe that Jesus would oppose abortion (which is not a huge leap in logic) and Obama voted pro-abortion, then its logically true to suspect that Jesus wouldn't vote for Obama.

Whatever you believe about Jesus' divinity, he wasn't a man to straddle the fence seeing things in shades of grey. Jesus wasn't overly concerned that people feel all touchy-feely-good about issues.

Frankly, I struggle with this a lot. I don't like things to be uncomfortable, and sometimes perhaps I am a little too willing to let things slide. (Along the lines of "Obama seems like such a nice man, so charming, so intelligent" which is all true, but its also true he's undeniably pro-choice.)
9.8.2004 5:26pm
Dean Esmay (www):
Jewish law is actually quite ambivalent on this subject.
9.8.2004 9:37pm
Casey Tompkins (mail) (www):
Um, didn't the J-man, like, hang out with tax collectors and prostitutes, too? I don't recall them being high on the list of "approved" social groups... :)
9.9.2004 4:38am
Admiral Quixote (mail):
Dean,
C'mon - Jewish law even specifies that those who accidentally kill an unborn baby may be put to death for this offense. If you want the references, click here.

But the comment about Jewish law is a bit of red herring anyway - the main point was about Keyes asking Christian voters to consider how their Savior would have them vote. As you know better than most, I do not always agree with Lucy. However, I think Keyes is perfectly correct in this. I am an independent, but I mostly vote Republican. This is not because I agree with most of the Republican platform (for example, I despise government hand outs to big business). I usually vote Republican because the Democrats rarely allow a pro-life candidate to run for a major office (Your man of the hour, Zell Miller, being a major exception. And at that, he's probably convinced them not to allow exceptions…). I have never knowingly voted for a candidate who supports abortion and never shall.

Casey,
Very true - Jesus came to minister to the sick, not the well. However, he also told the "undesirables" to go and sin no more...
9.9.2004 10:20pm
Dean Esmay (www):
Admiral: I would consult a Rabbi were I you before making this assertion. You will find that there is no real support for the notion that a woman having an abortion is a murderer. Your interpretation is strained, and most any Rabbi would tell you so.
9.10.2004 4:04am
Admiral Quixote (mail):
Dean,

Why do you assume that I have not? I have had this conversation many times with priests, preachers, rabbis, and religious laymen. I've also discussed this with religious laymen of other faiths (such as Islam), but have not yet had the opportunity to discuss this with professional leaders of these faiths.

As with any issue, there are multiple opinions. However, there is one common theme - the rabbis and priests who take their Scriptures literally believe their religious texts are very clear - abortion is murder. (Murder most foul too – I believe future Americans will look back at us and wonder why we allowed such a barbaric practice just as we look back at our ancestors and wonder why they allowed a few people to keep slavery legal.)

Likewise, over the course of many, many conversations it became apparent that those priests and rabbis who think the Scriptures are "guidance" and "suggestions" tend to share your perspective on this issue. They also tend to be those who think gay marriage and the Scriptures are easily reconciled. These folks are the ones who strain interpretations, but they have the advantage of being politically correct. Calling abortion for the murder it is (a most painful murder too in many cases; our backward nation does not even provide anesthetic for the condemned as is done in some nations) is very politically incorrect and brings out attacks from many – sometimes where one least expects it. I do not expect you to like my straightforward interpretation, but it is hardly strained.

As fascinating as this tangent is, this is a tangent to the point you originally raised. I do not understand why you find fault with Keyes on this issue. Surely you and I can agree that many folks reject abortion on religious grounds. Yes? This is hardly controversial. Then why shouldn't Alan Keyes ask these folks to consider their convictions when they vote? Because it makes politically correct folks squirm? Tough.

9.10.2004 12:26pm
Dean Esmay (www):
Every Jewish expert I have ever spoken to says that the scriptures clearly state that the soul enters the body upon the first drawing of breath--and that abortion, while it may be troubling, is clearly not proscribed by the scriptures.
9.10.2004 1:26pm
Admiral Quixote (mail):
Dean,
I respect your opinions or I would never visit. I appreciate that you are also very widely read. However, your exposure on this issue has obviously been quite limited.

I wrote a lengthy response on the subject that turned out much too long to post as a comment. So I posted it here.

As you will see, there are many, many Jewish experts who disagree with those with whom you have spoken. As I discuss, this may be due to the dominance of liberal Jewish opinion in the US vs. the standard Jewish opinion in much of the rest of the world.

9.12.2004 2:02pm
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