Dean's World

Okay, this may be a borderline defense of Moore, but I may as well jump in.

I'll grant you there are some real issues concerning the man's honesty, ethics and journalistic credentials. However, you lose me when you say he is "helping to tear the country apart for his own selfish reasons."

I don't understand why he is taken seriously. The guy is, at best, a mediocre director and professional loudmouth. Moore is clearly in the entertainment industry and I see no reason he's tearing us apart any more tham the Dixie Chicks, Al Franken or Ann Coulter are tearing us apart. He only has the credibility that we grant him and if it is the distribution of propaganda that concerns you a better target for your ire might be his publishers and distributors. Without Warner (books) and Lions Gate he has no more of a voice than I do.

In the end, his motives are the same as any other entertainer — to make as much money as he can selling his product. That's his job. It's what he does. Sure it's selfish, but no more selfish than Kobe Bryant, Eminem or Rush.

Al: Because it's being sold as a documentary. Because people I know are quoting it like it's gospel. Because prominent political leaders are heaping praise upon the man and his movie, while others are making excuses for him by saying "well the right lies too!" as if that's any kind of defense. Because Hezbollah is a supporter of the movie and its message and Michael Moore won't even denounce them because he wants their money. Because troops in the field are fighting and dying while this man is making propaganda that helps our enemies' cause.

I'm horrified and deeply alienated by this. Literally sick. I can't dismiss it as "mere entertainment," because it's also something that hurts us.

He's a fucking liar, and anyone who defends this fucking liar is not someone I can respect as a human being.

About the only defense I can think of for embracing Moore is the same reason as certain elements of the right embrace Coulter: Because Michael Moore serves up red meat, and the Left is hungry for it.

Heck, I enjoyed the late 80s/early 90s Michael Moore, particularly TV Nation. Crackers the Corporate Crimefighting Chicken still makes me chuckle.

But Moore's new mission as a left-wing polemicist? I can't stand the guy. One of my biggest problems with Moore and Al Franken is that they want to make the transition from entertainers to serious polemicists, but they still want to hold their rhetoric to the old standards of humor.

When Robin Williams, for example, joked about John Ashcroft losing an election to a dead guy, that was fine. Williams is a comedian. In addition to saying John Ashcroft lost to a dead guy, he also did this bit about Jesus' last supper being at a restaurant with only one table -- a very long table where everybody had to sit facing the same way.

But for Michael Moore to say that Ashcroft lost to a dead guy? As Spinsanity points out, the voters were perfectly aware that their real vote was for the deceased's widow, not for Mel Carnahan himself. As I understand it, Moore glosses over that particular fact.

That sort of behavior would be unacceptable if it came from David Broder or Charles Krauthammer, but because Michael Moore seems to think he deserves a free pass because he's a filmmaker.

--|PW|--

The more we talk about "Amalek" Moore, the longer he survives in the limelight. Stop talking about him at all, and he disappears, leaving nothing behind but the corpulent shadow of his fat ass.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

It's disgusting, and it is not excusable.

Well said. It is inconceivable to me that any member of our governing legislature could proudly and publicly stand behind this man.

Tim, Rush is not the subject of this conversation, and the statement that Moore would like to see this country collapse is neither ridiculous nor unlikely. His apparent goal is to become the propagandist-in-chief in a socialist replacement for the American system.

Direct evidence for this? Look at the subjects he attacks, and the methods he uses:
Roger &Me: Goes after Big Business, and by xtension capitalism, and begins his record of distortion and outright lies. It is also interesting enough that when one of his employees who was laid off attempted to make his own documentary about the experience, and interview Moore, Moore got a restraining order and threatened a destructive lawsuit, something Roger Smith never did.
Bowling for Columbine: Hell, the title is based on a lie. He attacks the idea of Americans owning guns, not gun ownership in general (he makes no bones of his approval of Canadian gun ownership).
Fahrenheit 9/11: The entire concept is based on lies, down to the overall lie that Moore cares in the least about what happened on 9/11. He has stated that 9/11 was no big deal because its statistically unlikely. His speeches in the run-up to this movie have been filled with hate towards America and Americans, Dean has provided the links.

Rush Limbaugh is a blowhard pundit who very often talks out of his ass, but he's also a patriot. Moore would, in less sensitive and politically correct days, be correctly charged with treason and sedition for providing material aid and comfort to enemies of the United States (Hezbollah, the al Qaeda cels in Iraq, Saddam Hussein himself, etc). His dissent is not patriotic, any more than suggestion that the US surrender to Germany in WW2 or to the USSR during the Cold War would have been. Moore's "dissent" isn't over internal issues such as gay rights, tax cuts, or any of the millions of other topics we Americans routinely disagree on, he is, by distorting the words, deeds, and record of a sitting President in wartime in hopes of replacing him with someone who will be ineffective in the War on Terror (Moore opposed Afghanistan as well as Iraq, but will probably be fairly disappointed by Kerry/Edwards), attacking America's fundamental nature and sovereignty.

There's a good reason MM's supporters are correctly identified as Moore-ons. Because they are either willfully ignorant, or dangerously anti-American.

When your film helps to fund terrorists by your own decision, it becomes a matter of national security.

I'm not trying to moonbat around here but I'm curious as to why patriotism is such a valuable thing to have or to look for in someone.

Thanks.

Mark Noonan: Good to see you here in the new Dean's World. I've been awaiting your arrival.

Anyway...

I hereby condemn and repudiate Michael Moore, as I have already done a couple times before here in Dean's World. He is a fucking liar, and disloyal, if not actually a traitor. He is in cahoots with the terrorist enemies of Israel, America, and the West. He also lies about gun owners, portraying them as murdering maniacs. I have had it with that damned lie.

His lies cannot conceivably be excused by "somebody else lies". That's stupid. The way to counter lies is to tell the truth, not with more lies (Moore lies).

Ever since 9/11/2001, the Left has pushed me further and further to the Right on most spectrums every time they open their mouths. The Left is the Stupid Party.

I'm keeping Dean's World on my blogroll and Dean Esmay in my address book. As soon as I'm able, I'm going to elevate both Dean and the Queen of All Evil to a higher position on my blogroll, right next to my friends Eric Scheie (Classical Values) and Jeff Soyer (Alphecca).

Tim, there's plenty of evidence that Michael Moore is an anti-capitalist, if not an outright socialist. There's his call for a 70% tax rate, for example. And how else to explain this passage from his Open Letter to Elian Gonzalez?

The worst that could be said is that, in Cuba, you were in jeopardy of receiving free health care whenever you needed it, an excellent education in one of the few countries that has 100% literacy, and a better chance of your baby sister being born and making it to her first birthday than if she had been born in Washington, DC.

Of course, his socialist bona fides will be well-established in his next "documentary," reported to be Michael Moore Explains Health Care to Ignorant Americans.

I was quite amazed to see that this fellow - Jeff Jarvis - lives IN MY TOWN!!!

This is TRULY a small world.

Tim, your "anti-free speech" rhetoric, whining about "neo-conservative censorship" and Bush Derangement Syndrome all have no basis in fact. You want Bush to lose, and apparently have no scruples when it comes to that goal. But free speech has limits, and the most commonly known is that you can't shout 'fire' in a crowded theater. That covers spreading false propaganda about the Commander in Chief to embolden and fund enemies of the US during a time of war.

As for anti-capitalism, I could run through a list of more of Moore statements on that point, but sufficent it to say that he has issued blanket denunciations of Big Business, small business, and every business except his own.

Provide me some examples of Rush lies, Rick. You must know some, since you make such an issue out of it. I don't listen to Rush much at all, just an occasional clip or quote I run across. But if Rush Limbaugh has lied in an effort to help encourage, comfort, embolden, or fund enemies of the US (as Michael Moore has), I'll happily rescind the 'patriot' label.

But, DeMent, the thread is about Moore. Do try to stay on topic. Are you defending him or not

Spectrumological clarification:
I wrote:
"Ever since 9/11/2001, the Left has pushed me further and further to the Right on most spectrums every time they open their mouths. The Left is the Stupid Party."
By "the Left" here I mean:
"Liberty" ? no longer
"Equality" ? uniformity, incompatible with liberty
"Fraternity" ? with out enemies

I'm against those last two. Therefore, I am on the Right on many spectrums.

Well of course Bush's team had ads pointing Edwards' shortcomings ready to go. Any competent campaign organisation (Bush, like most competent leaders, surrounds himself with competent underlings) would have had them on all the likely prospects.

Nothing but failures? You would do well to read more than the headlines. You are being told the economy stinks, but if you bother digging thru to the Barbie bra pages (business section is 1D thru 3D in our local rag) you will discover the deep dark secret that the U.S. economy is improving at the fastest rate since when Reaganomics first took hold.

"I just quit Dean's World. Obviously this is Bush's World and people refuse to see through this administration's bullshit! Did it take about 4 minutes for the Bush Campaign team to already try to tear down Edwards with negative ads."

Good lord, you better hope Kerry &Edwards have better staying power than you for the campaign. And 4 minutes is pretty snappy...the result of good management skills. Bodes well for Bush's chances, I'd think.

I'm a big Bush backer, and I'd switch sides in a heartbeat if just one lefty could give me just one solid, unequivocal piece of evidence (other than their say-so, that is) that "Bush Lied". On any issue. Ever. Nobody has been able to do it. I don't imagine you'll succeed where they failed.

Tim Snyder, you have been around Dean's World a long time. For you to say you just quit Dean's World has me for the first time angry with you.

Dean has pointed out on more than one occasion those democrats he does like. Hell, I have seen him talk about Hilary Clinton in a much better way than I ever would. His opinion of Al Gore and why he liked him for awhile. Hasn't he given great credit to Joe Lierberman and said how very much he would have liked Joe to have won the democratic nomination? You can look at the archives and see many times he gave credit to democrats. Hell, he was a democrat so give some thought to that before quitting. You have had many good arguments here in Dean's place and many of his commentors have agreed with you. Many commentors have spoke of their dislike for Bush but they still come here.

This post is about Moore and his lies, period. Sure some people got off the subject above but they are welcome here for all that I can see. Remember too all the people that came together for those children in Iraq and sent toys because of a soldier over there feeling bad for those kids. Then came a request to help out the Marines wanting to let the Iraq population get to know the true heart of Americans and our soldiers. People are mad at Moore on this movie and they have every right to be. It is to a very unhealthy documentary about our country and the POTUS. I know from reading so many of your comments that you are a fine soldier. Get a grip! We do not need a Michael Moore out there spreading hatred. Just for a few minutes try to put yourself and anyone else thinking Moore's 9/11 is not bad, well then try to put yourself in the boots of our men and women fighting for our freedoms. They are putting their lives on the line and deserve our support, our complete support.

Michael Moore lies to much and we do not need that now. We have been through hell here on our soil and removing Sadam was right, ask a few soldiers that fought in the first war there. I have and they have all said we should not have stopped and got Sadam back then. There are people that think we went to war for oil and are completely forgetting what happened here and they too need to get a grip.

Time will give an answer as our history plays out. Moore's documentary will look bad. I shudder thinking of our soldiers that have to hear about this nonsense. Get mad at the people that you should get mad at and I believe those comments above and Dean's post show how very good and decent we are here in the U.S.

Tim-
This post wasn't about Bush, so leave only if you're clear on why you want to. But maybe you should go if you must support Moore. Dean was very clear on that point.
FWLIW, I agree with his position: Moore lies, he's an enemy of the US, and his supporters should be shunned thusly as well. He is "half-gramaphone, half-gangster", as Orwell put it.

Amazing, but typical..."lets talk about Moore". "Rush!". "But what about Moore?" "Bush!" "But what do you think of Moore?" "I'm quitting!".

If they'd only call him indefensible and condemn him, it'd all be over...the fact that they cannot bring themselves to condemn Moore provides sufficient proof, in my mind, that they agree with Moore entirely.

Steven,

Also good to see you here...but with your moniker as it is, no one who arrives late will understand "WWSMATLWGLSAD?" means...

Irving,

I called Rush once in the late 80's and called him on a fact he was pushing back when he was aganst drugs. while I realize that this was a while agou I thought you might enjoy the story.

This is only one example, but the fact is I don;t make a hobby of traking dow Rush's lies and distortions becase I don;t really find the guy all that offensive

But your right this thread is not about how Rush lies, it's about how Moore lies. But Moore lies in the same way Rush lies so I think it's a relevant point, Rush uses innuendo and facts that have been proven to be non-sense over and over again. In fact they both do pretty must that same thing it’s just that one uses radio and the other uses film.

This is only one example, but the fact is I don’t make a hobby of tracking down Rush's lies and distortions because I don’t really find the guy all that offensive, I find him entertaining in spite of the fact that he distorts the truth in precisely the same way Moore does and the gullible buy it hook, line and sinker.

And for god sake John, I wouldn't really care about this at all if you guys spent 10% of the time debunking the crap that comes out of Right wing polemics as you have with Moore. To even suggest that Rush is a “harmless fuzz ball” and then to go of on the kind of tear that you all have been on lately with Moore proves that you don’t give a rat’s ass about the truth, you re just upset because your ox is the one getting gored.

But to keep things on topic here are some links so you all can compair and contrast the lies of Rush to the lies of Moore. It would be instructive I think to look at the modern master of political shit slinging in order to appreciate Moore’s lies even better.

ok, I don't quit. bastards :-}

Mark:

I'm still a Lesbian-worshipping gun-loving selfish aesthete. I tried to add that after I registered here but it didn't go through, so I'll stick with the name my parents gave me. If somebody posts here under the name "Steven Malcolm Anderson" who isn't a Lesbian-worshipping gun-loving selfish aesthete, we'll know he's an imposter and boot him out of here.