Whatever. Most people (period) are mindless partisan hacks with "no real thoughts or opinions". Being an R or a D has little to do with it.

I have plenty of reasons to be angry with the party in power.

Synonymous with pro-not-having a clue, no doubt.

Ross,

Really, because I usually find that most people (period) are quite thoughtful and non-partisan when it comes to politics; at least the ones who care enough about politics to talk or write about it. It is an altogether new phenomenon for me, seeing how absolute mindless partisanship -- which used to fill only a small minority of both sides -- has seemingly taken full control over the entire Left. The blind, drooling hatred spewing out of that side of the spectrum is disturbing, and is clearly not contained only to the minority any more. No, the majority of the Left Wing have become fuming, screaming morons.

I've seen nothing of this phenomenon on the Right. Their disgusting idiocy is still limited to the minority.

And that is the problem. You are angry. STOP emoting and start thinking. Look at the Bush administration from a logical POV. They took over a nation that was collapsing economically and under the most serious attack America has ever faced. The Economy is on sound footing and well into substainable recovery. Security wise the defense has been shored up and we are counterattacking. The counter attack could be going better, but war is a dynamic process and our enemy is thinking very hard on how to defeat us. If you have problems with either of those points, you should seriously consider leaving. NO ONE is forced to stay in America. You can leave whenever you want. If you stay, you have the right to complain, but you also have the DUTY to co-operate with the majority. If that duty is to onerous, leave. The South of France is nice this time of year.

Um, dow; isn't what you described what the Emperor Misha calls an "Idiotarian," and others a "moonbat?"

There's two perfectly good terms right there. Heh...

"I've seen nothing of this phenomenon on the Right. Their disgusting idiocy is still limited to the minority."

So how would you term those who call themselves "conservatives" and who are driving this nation into the largest budget deficits ever? Last I looked they're not in a minority in our government.

Ableiter: Unlike the Third Reich, no one in this country has the DUTY to cooperate with the majority. They can also stay, no matter how much you may not like it. You can leave, too, maybe to North Korea—since the Reich is gone—where they're also big on DUTY.

Those of us who've been around long enough are rather amused to see the left carping about the size of the deficit when for decades it was the right who complained about this--and the left almost invariably insisted, for decades, that people who complained about the deficit had a sinister agenda to defund the schools and welfare and all that stuff. Now suddenly, just very recently, the left cares about deficits and the right supposedly doesn't. It's amusing.

That said, the right and the left are both guilty of a bit of a shell game on this. Neither our budget deficit nor our debt is particularly bad at the moment. It has been much worse in times past.

A thing to understand on this is that the debt and deficit have been going up steadily for over 200 years. But so has the population, and so has our national income.

Put it this way: if you currently make $20,000 a year, then $2,000 in debt is a lot. If you currently make $80,000 a year, then $4,000 in debt isn't all that much.

The truth is that, either as a percentage of our national wealth, or as a percentage of our per capita income, the debt and deficit are not at "record" levels at all. Indeed, it's been much higher at several times in our past.

So that's the thing, the right's been playing a shell game on this for decades. Now the left's playing it too. Although I'd have to advise that it may not be all that wise: complaining about deficits was the favorite Republican complaint for about 60 years, and they were a minority party for almost all of those 60 years. Indeed, complaining about deficits might well be the default position of the losing party.

REAL conservatives don't do deficits? So Reagan was not a real conservative?
I guess all conservatives are fake conservatives, but what's wrong with that? I don't see that the word "conservative" requires being against deficits. I guess Dean thinks that the word "liberal" implies free thinking. You know, from the latin and all that.

Dowingba has a point. I have long resented the use, by conservatives, of the term "liberal" with a negative connotation. "Liberal" has many definitions, not least of which is "Tolerant of the ideas or behavior of others" (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language). As a Democrat and ardent supporter of the war on terrorism, I have no use for the intolerance of the far-left, anti-war "peace" movement. I also have no use for the intolerant viewpoints of those such as, e.g., Limbaugh's "Dittoheads". Can we say "Not exactly free thinkers"? Being a liberal does not preclude having the common sense to vote the issues instead of the party line. I understand the reasons for, and support, the war on terror. Contrary to Ableiter, I do not think anyone has a "duty" to do so. I respect anyone's decision not to as long as they can present an intelligent reason why they feel or vote as they do, and at least make some attempt to understand my viewpoint.

"I've seen nothing of this phenomenon on the Right. Their disgusting idiocy is still limited to the minority."

Not necessarily true. Their idiocy and partisanship may just be confined to a different issue. Everyone has their crusades, something that makes them angry and irrational. People who are normally reasonable, respectable can become raving idiots when you mention the correct issue and press the right buttons. The idiocy within the left may just be more apparent because the issue they are pissed about is a current major issue, when something the right gets pissed about becomes a major issue I expect to see a good deal more idiocy from them.

Hate moonbats? Hell no. I pity the fool[s]!

Dibble, lets see:
Republicans tend to be opposed to abortion (I'm ro-choice however). . . but shrill obnoxious ones who shout outside clinics were far exceeded by the numbers of shrieking "abortion is the only issue that matters" supporters in recent times.
Republicans tend to be opposed to gay marriage. Yet even the amendment Bush is endorsing would still leave the door open for states to recognize civil unions.
Nope, they'd have a long way to go to match the idiocy the left is displaying these days.

John Irving,

Maybe you didn't read what I said, but it was that the Right may have idiocy that's just not as displayed right now as what the Left is displaying right now. Yes, there are issues right now where the Right is being stupid, but only as a minority, but I'm quite sure there are issues where the Right in general is more idiotic than the Left is(just can't come up with one at the moment, I'm not a conservative, I'm a libertarian, so I don't profess to know everything a conservative might dislike). The Right is just as capable of becoming blithering idiots as the Left is, nobody is immune to irrational behavior, not me, not you, not anybody. Also consider there may be a number of people on the Right(and the Left for that matter) who seem reasonable in their views, but are just as stubborn and blind about them as the other side, you just may not see it because their views are similar to yours. It must also be thought that perhaps the idiocy of the Left you are seeing is being blown out of proportion. The idiotarian left is certainly louder than the moderate, thinking left, so even if they may be as much of a minority in the left as the idiotarian right is in the right they just get more attention. I have little doubt that the Right will become idiots at one point and the Left will become the thinking side, and then it will switch again, and again, and again. The Left needs the Right, the Right needs the Left, both sides keep eachother in check so they don't go overboard.

I certainly do think that the Left or the Democrats or whatever you want to call the crypto-socialist movement is on an unsound intellectual footing but I don't go in for bald insults like this (excepting retaliation). You may call them all sorts of names with justification but it's not responsible, it's not mature and it is not helping anyone. If they are as crazy as you say (and I think they are) is poking them going to sane anyone up? That may seem a futile cause, I know, but it is what we owe the polity at large.

Can we go back to having Dean's World run by Dean?
This keeps confusing the heck out of me.

Dibble, I didnt explain fully I guess. . . for the political conversation to moderate once again, its the LEFT that currently needs to get its extremists under control. I know the cycle will swing back, its lately I referred to quite explicitly.
So yes, while there are plenty of right-wing whackos, for the moment they are being fairly effectively isolated. It's time for the Left to do some housecleaning.
And if you hadnt noticed, on at least one fairly sensitive topic I am a definite pariah to many on the Right. I dont begrudge their views, but I am free to hold my own.

Ok, I understand what you were saying now. I think we agree - The Left has an overabundance of whackos(but by no means a majority) at this juncture in time but the Right will probably have a similar problem in the future over another issue(or maybe even the current issue, just taken to an extreme version of the reasonable stance).

As to a name for the leftist whackos - idiots suits my purposes, thought that goes to the right's whackos too.

Why don't you (dowbinga, Dean), just call yourselves 'The corpereal manifestation of all that is good and true, rational and open-minded, fair and balanced' instead of 'liberal' - because that's what you mean when you claim the label. Its not the hard and not-so-hard leftists who have sullied the word in any case - its the mindless gratuitous demagoguery [sp] of right-wing partisans that has been going on for a decade now.

Dean, the left cried foul about deficits due to tax-cuts which do generally put the crunch on state budgets and services while the right complains about deficits due to 'run-away spending'.... always? What's new about that? I think that %-wise the deficits are pretty close to the historic highs, though I'm open to correction if you have the figures at hand. If you include the Iraq-budget I've no doubt they're at record levels, but since its not a structural deficit it doesn't worry me too much - some quote from Tom deLay along the lines of 'At a time of war nothing is more important than tax-cuts' [almost verbatim] sums up the somewhat fanatical attitude of Republicans towards taxes quite well for me.

And Max proves my point. . . your not part of the solution Max, your part of the problem. . . for liberal causes just as much as conservative.

Max: FWIW, a relatively "hard" figure that I've heard is that the extra military/aid funding for Iraq is about three-eighths of the current deficit. Good or bad? Your call... :)

But I can't help but ask the people who are screaming about the deficit: why not cut something? Is every single item in the Federal budget sancrosanct? The answer is, of course, "no." But no one wants to lose their pork...

"But I can't help but ask the people who are screaming about the deficit: why not cut something? Is every single item in the Federal budget sancrosanct? The answer is, of course, "no." But no one wants to lose their pork..."

Amen, Casey. I can think of quite a few things that we can cut, a certain 1.5 billion dollar marriage education program comes to mind.

In mainland Europe, 'liberal' just means someone in favour of freedom. E.g. In Britain, 'liberal' can be someone who believes in freedom, but it also means somone who opposes freedom but supports equality, or someone who has wishy-washy views. The anti-freedom definition is an American import. While I'm generally a fan of Americanisms, this one sucks.

Although I just a "mindless partisan hack," I'll still be defending my country and serving proudly under any elected president. I can't tell you how many times my collegues openly disrespected President Clinton when he was Comander-in-Chief. For eight years I listened to their crap. From my perch, the partisan hacks on the right far far outnumber the ones on the left. Of course, I'm just a Soldier, what the fuck could I know?