Justene

Go on over to ancestry.com and or check out cyndislist.com.

There are mesage boards for most every location. You might find someone who will be able to read the handwriting on the back. There is also JewishGen.

When you get to the point, there is the Church of the Latter Day Saints where you can order microfilms of baptismal records albeit usually ending around 1905. Without a last name you're hard pressed to be certain which Francoise would be the one, but once you solve that mystery, you'll be on your way to more sleuthing.

Anyway, start your search over at ancestry on one of their French boards. Chateaubriant looks to be a location and they probably have other researchers working in that location [near the Loire valley it seems.]
They also have some links to other sites.

I've been running the names I have (her mother and grandmother) through those sites, with minimal luck so far. I figure if I can find someone in France related to them, they may know the grandfather's name. Any hits I get will be the subject of future posts.

Imagine not knowing your grandfather's name. It shows me how close Hitler actually was to exterminating a race.

I can't read all of it, but it looks in part like:
"souvenir de mon internement (?hard to read) au camp de Chateaubriant le 26 aout 1941" which would translate "souvenir of my internment at Camp Chateaubriant August 26, 1941." I can't make out what comes before or the name.

Justene,

In the matter of Christian baptism, the father will not be named as matter of protocol [if that's the right word]. Maybe later if the couple should marry. It's a real problem. No records? No documents? No proveable existence. Also not confined to the Germans.

The back of your paper looks to be something on the order of 'souvenir from me' 'souvenir de moi'
and perhaps addressed to someone name Christian or it also looks like 'fili Christian' which might mean and daughter Christine ? and it is dated August 26, 1941 Chateaubriant. Is there a name before in the corner?

I don't know French myself, but if you can make out some of the handwriting and become familiar with the shape of letters [yes, i believe that to be a 't' just in front of 1941], you can get on an online dictionary and figure some of this out. I once had a picture with writing on the back in old German script. It must have been something significant, or so I thought. Met someone who was familiar with the handwriting who translated it. Explosive information?

'I have been waiting and waiting for weeks. Going to the Post and no letter from you. I am all alone here but I hear nothing from you, my children. Your mother.'

It was common practice to send a picture of oneself with an inscription on the back that amounted to 'In memory of...' and not to denote one who is deceased. Translation problem..hmmm...something like 'thinking of you' or 'something for you to remember me by'

It is also signed. I don't know if that is an F or not. Perhaps it is, and then perhaps it is the last name of F. blank ' Keiolleurs'?

Post a question for assistance in deciphering the inscription. Genealogists are tremendously helpful, but one needs to be very specific. Outside of the general message boards are also mailing lists. These are usually people who pretty adept and well into their own research. Sleuthing is their game and something as specific as this. The signature looks to be the important part right now.

Good luck

That's pretty good Margaret. I know that consensus wouldn't necessarily make it correct, but I concur.
You think that's a signature at the end?

Yes, I think it is a signature--initial and last name. Maybe a "J" or "T"? "Keiolleur" (I don't think it's an "s" at the end but a flourish) is what I make out, like you, but that somehow doesn't seem right. It does look like "fils Christian" which would be "son Christian" in the first line, but I can't read what is before or after until "souvenir."

Regarding the last name of the signature, my take is:

[*]éiollêur

The diacritical marks are rather speculative, especially the circumflex over the second e. There might be an 's' on the end, but my (wild-assed) guess is that there isn't. I wouldn't be at all surprised to be wrong.

* The first letter could be K, as 'observer' suggested, but there seems to be a rather odd curlicue and horizontal line before the most prominent vertical. I would also believe a 'T', 'Th', 'H', or even 'F'.

FWIW and good luck,

Yes, or fils.

How about an 'R'. H is hard because the right vertical of the first letter is so weak.

I have taken, at times, to reversing the image into a negative and, on occasion, some marks appear that I couldn't see in the positive. Not sure it will help.

I hate these kind of mysteries. They usually wind up as something on the order 'yours truly'. :)

Could the signature read T. Zeiolleur?

Or possibly Theiolluise

There is indeed a son Christian, my sister-in-law's uncle. The picture of Francoise at the internment camp so all of that makes sense. I would love if the signature is a name but I am concerned that it is "yours truly."

Observer, are you saying that the failure to name the father on the baptismal record means they were not married? Or is that just a possibility?

I forgot to mention that "Francoise" is the feminine form of "Francois"--surely his name was the latter.

"Yours truly/sincerely" would normally be rendered something like: "Veuillez agreer (sorry, don't know how to create accents)mes sentiments les meilleurs." I just can't get rid of the "o" in the last word/name, otherwise you might get "meilleurs"--still looks like a name to me.

Justene, the Nazis kept meticulous records. If Francois was held at a Camp Chateaubriant, there is very likely a record of it somewhere. If you could get a list of all the prisoners from, say the summer of 1941 through 1943, you could start to narrow it down.

Do you know if he actually died in France? The killing centers and gas chambers were all in the east. That is not to say that people didn't die or weren't executed in the internment camps. But most people, until the last months of the war, were tranported to the east eventually. Anne Frank and family, for instance, were on the last transport to Auschwitz from Holland. She ended up in Bergen Belsen, back in Germany, after the Russians started to close in on the Eastern front.

Good luck, Justene, I'm still puzzling over the name.

Hi Justene,

Yes. The church was very strict about these things. I do know that quite before 1900, folks were pretty devout and almost always had their children baptized within a day or two of their birth. Ward off those evil spirits or avoid 'limbo', or some such thing. And then there were lazy parents who may not ever have had their children baptized. What I really can't speak to with any certainty is the later years. But I don't think the church was very liberal until the 60s, anyway.

World War One did a lot to destroy people's faith including their religious practice. Hence 'modernism' -born of the destruction of the 'old world'.

If you can get a baptismal record for the uncle 'Christian' it should say that he was illegitimate. I don't know that the certificate should say it or would say it. Maybe.
If what you say is the case, that the children were baptized a bit after 1941 without listing the father and Fancoise was indeed Jewish, then perhaps the mother was able to have this baptism happen with some 'conspiracy' by the local priest. I might think it was done to protect them and she was willing to claim the children as illegitimate. But I'm just speculating. People do lots of things in war time to protect their lives.
I will tell you that German records are quite detailed, almost replete with good handwriting, and of ourse, owing to the stereotype of thoroughness, Germans were able to trace anyone they chose to determine parentage, ie. Jewish blood.
Now you are talking about French records. I do know that in the area that I have researched [former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania] it depended on how educated the local priest was whether he was absolutely thorough, legible, etc. or not. And if they had some German priest, I am delighted because at least I can read it.
Since Chataeubriant is most likely the location of the internment camp and not where Francois comes from, knowing where Christian was born should help abit. What year was Christian born and what year was he baptized? People don't usually wait too long to do this. Even in this modern age it's highly unusual to see children over 1 year old being christened, albeit the undecided might eventually succumb to their religious background in the absence of any alternative.

If he was born to a Jewish father, is it highly likely that he would have named his son Christian? Even if it was a mixed marriage? Could be.

You certainly didn't have to be Jewish to be gassed [although it insured its occurrence]. French Underground is good enough, along with homosexual, dissenter, Gypsy, disabled, etc. So comments tossed around about daughter of the Jew, might also be to denigrate someone as behaving as such.
Was Christian circumcised?
Circumcision is not widely practiced and only becomes wide spread with medical favor in the 50s-60s. Francois would have been anywhere from 20 -30years old in 1941. That puts his birth in the teens or about. I don't think that Christian boys were getting circumcised. Jewish boys, absolutely.
Now how would you be able to find out? Hmmm.

So you have a few of possibilites.
It's a fake baptism.
They really weren't married.
Or they were baptized later to affirm their Christianity in light of the German Occupation.

You can always write to the church. Or try to check some hospital records. The world is bit more adept at keeping records in the 1930s and 40s than they are in the 1800s where I'm stuck.

Sorry for the long post. Musing a bit sometimes leads to other avenues that might offer results.

My grandfather was illegit. I know the last name, not the first, and then people multiply like rabbits. Pick one and make him the ancestor. Aargh!

I appreciate all the musing. I have his daughter's baptismal record and the line for the father was blank. I would love to locate Christian or his heirs. they were probably under Poisson and that is the name I have been running through the genealogy site.

He was not killed in France. He was in France in 1941 and later sent to somewhere in Germany. His daughter, Liliane Poisson, was born in 1938 and then baptized in June of 1943, which we believe is right around when he was killed.

Poisson is the maiden name of Liliane's mother.

I am trying to confirm the spelling of Francois(e). It's carved into a box he made, which is back in NY.

And how would I access the German records. I read some German and Xrlq is fluent.

Justene: Here is a link to a site on internment camps in France http://www.musee-resistance.com/visGuid/musees/chateaubriant.asp, specifically Chateubriant. The site is entirely in French. I have not had time to look at it closely, but it may provide you with some contact info. As far as the photo caption, everyone is right about the date, and it seems that above that I can make out "souvenir de moi" or "remembrance of me". The initial looks like an "F" (Francoise? BTW Francoise is feminine, Francois, masculin). But Ke (accent aigu)iolleur(s) doesn't seem to make much sense. Is there a better photo available? PS - Just scrolled up and saw Margaret already made the same points as I. Good luck - now you have a lot of help with your mystery!

Are you referring to wartime German records?

The National Archives have quite a few.

So baptism at the age of 5? Interesting. There's a reason.

You really might check on one of the French mailing lists. You can access them through rootsweb. I don't know about France, but certainly in Hungary, beginning 1895 they had civil registration of births and deaths. I can't imagine that France would be different or institute the civil practice later than Hungary.
Earlier than 1895, I have to rely only on church records. If they weren't baptized, then there would be no record. 1938 is very very different.

You might try looking for anyone born to a mother named Poisson in your particular village, town Paris? Ugh - huge! I suspect that baptism may be a place wholly different than where Christian or Liliane was born. Do you know where they were born? Is Christian still alive?

http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/surname/p/poisson.html

http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/FRA/

I suppose it might be the pays-de-la-loire region, but I don't know my France.

I have no idea if Christian is still alive. He was last living in Paris. I will be researching all of those sites in the next few days. This has produced a wealth of information and I thank you all.

Justene,in case you have not found it, here is the email address to contact the resistance museum for Chateaubriant, linked by Mark Firestone, above:

conservateur@musee-resistance.com

I would imagine that someone there would be able to read English and perhaps they could help direct you. They seem like a good place to start. The National Archives have the captured war documents. Perhaps the Holocaust Museum in D.C. has information on French camps and lists.

If you live near a college or university with a French department--maybe even a high school--you should be able to find someone to look at your picture and help decipher the message on the back.

Okay, one last thing - if you haven't done this already

http://www.infobel.com/france/wp/extsearch/result.asp?qcitycode=&qstreetcode=&qnacecode=&qcode=20437956&qlastName=poisson&qfirstName=christian&qzip=&qcity=&Search.x=45&Search.y=17

41 hits - none in Paris

Margaret - you are sleuthing junkie yourself, eh?

Justene - good luck. Try the most obvious first. Find Christian.

Justene - Can't seem to put this one down! I did a Hotbot (Google) search for the name "Kerolleur' and got all kinds of hits, many in French. If you look at the signature, the first letter is almost assuredly a capital"K". Write it as it appears and you will see what I mean. The second letter is definitely an "e". The third could be an "r", followed by two definite "l's", and the last part could definitely be eur, with a flourish.

Bravo, Mark! And if you look at "Chateaubriant," the "r" in that looks like the letter that would be "r" in "Kerolleur." Well done!

Thanks, Margaret. I also meant to mention that the accent over the first "e", after the "K", is an "accent aigu", and makes perfect sense in that location for a name like "Kerolleur". With all respect due Doug Sundseth, I do not believe, nor do I see, that there are any other accents in the name, certainly not an "accent circonflexe" over the second "e". If anything, it's just a blemish, and unintentional. An "accent circonflexe", in French, expressly denotes a missing "s", from the way the word was written in Old French. Example: "Hopital" would have such an accent over the "o" ( I can't type it as I do not have a French keyboard). It looks like the symbol we use to denote "less than" or "more than", but with the apex of the arrow pointing up. It just doesn't belong over the "e" that is followed by "ur". Ergo, I am completely convinced that the name is, indeed, Kerolleur. By way of explanation, I learned French fluently while attending school in Switzerland many years ago - too many! It is rusty now, but I can still hold my own in a conversation.

By the way, Margaret - I think you are spot-on with the "fils Christian". I need to start wearing my glasses.

The only (Kerolleurs) person in Paris listed in the phone directory below is Alain Kerolleur. His name appears in a search for Kerolleur or for Kerolleurs.

http://www.pagesjaunes.fr/pb.cgi

Kerolleur Alain
23 r Paul Bert 75011 PARIS
01 43 67 31 32

reference: general information

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.apra.asso.fr/Camps/Camp-Chateaubriant.html%23Choisel&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcamp%2Bchateaubriant%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8

CAMP OF CHATEAUBRIANT
(Loire-Lower)
The CENTER OF STAY SUPERVISES CHOISEL located to CHATEAUBRIANT sheltered ordinary prisoners and a certain number of "policies" whose majority were communist.
The camp depended administratively on the Sub-prefect and was kept by French gendarmes.
Following the murder, in October 1941, of Colonel HOTZ, Feldkomman-dant of NANTES, the Prefect representing the Minister of Interior Department was charged to draw up a first list of fifty hostages which will be refused. It is then the Prefecture of Police force of Paris which will take care of the work and will draw up one second list made up as a majority of Communists and trade unionists.
October 22 afternoon, the CAMP OF CHOISEL was encircled by the visited SS and all huts. 27 men on the whole are designated and removed by two trucks which lead them to the career of the Sand pit where they are shot by a firing squad of 80 men. Young person of the hostages, Guy MOQUET (wire of a communist deputy), was hardly 17 years old!
The CAMP OF CHOISEL was closed at the beginning of 1942.

more references:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-24-46.htm

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24 Jan. 46
furnished by the Minister of the Interior. This was Pucheu. He has since been tried by my compatriots, sentenced to death, and executed.
The Subprefect of Chateaubriant sent a letter to the Kommandantur of Chateaubriant in reply to the order which he received from the Minister of the Interior:
"Following our conversation of today, I have the honor of confirming to you that the Minister of the Interior has communicated today with General Von Stulpnagel in order to designate to him the most dangerous Communist prisoners among those who are now held at Chateaubriant. You will find enclosed herewith the list of 60 individuals who have been handed over this day."

On the following page is the German order:
"Because of the assassination of the Feldkommandant of Nantes, Lieutenant Colonel Hotz, on 20 October 1941, the following Frenchmen, who were already imprisoned as hostages in accordance with my publication of 22 August 1941 and of my ordinance to the Plenipotentiary General of the French Government of 19 September 1941, are to be shot."
In the following pages you will find a list, of all the men who were shot on that day. I leave out the reading of the list in order not to lengthen the proceedings unduly.
On Page 16 you will find a list of 48 names. On Page 13 you will find the list of those who were shot in Nantes. On Page 12 you will find the list of those who were shot in Chateaubriant. Their bodies were distributed for burial to all the surrounding communes.

I shall read to you the testimony of eyewitnesses as to how they were buried after having been shot. On Page 3 of this document you will find the note of M. Dumenil concerning the executions of 21 October 1941, which was written the day after these executions. The second paragraph reads:

"The priest was called at 11:30 to the prison of La Fayette. An officer, probably of the GFP, told him that he was to announce to certain prisoners that they were going to be shot. The priest was then locked up in a room with the 13 hostages who were at the prison. The other three, who were at les Rochettes, were ministered to by Abbe Theon, professor at the College Stanislas.
"The Abbe Fontaine said to the condemned, 'Gentlemen, you must understand, alas, what my presence means.' He then spoke with the prisoners collectively and individually for the two hours which the officers had said would be granted to

p138

24 Jan. 46
arrange the personal affairs of the condemned and to write their last messages to their families.
"The execution had been fixed for 2 o'clock in the afternoon, half an hour having been allowed for the journey. But the two hours went by, another hour passed, and still another hour before the condemned were sent for. Certain of them, optimists by nature, like M. Fourny, already hoped that a countermanding order would be given, in which the priest himself did not at all believe.
"The condemned were all very brave. It was two of the youngest, Gloux and Grolleau, who were students, who constantly encouraged the others, saying that it was better to die in this way than to perish uselessly in an accident.
"At the moment of leaving, the priest, for reasons which were not explained to him, was not authorized to accompany the hostages to the place of execution. He went down the stairs of the prison with them as far as the car. They were chained together in twos. The thirteenth had on handcuffs. Once they were in the truck, Gloux and Grolleau made another gesture of farewell to him, smiling and waving their hands that were chained together.
"Signed: Dumenil, Counsellor attached to the Cabinet."

re references: Camp Chateaubriant

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-05/tgmwc-05-42-05.shtml

The Trial of German Major War Criminals
Sitting at Nuremberg, Germany
21st January to 1st February, 1946
Forty-Second Day: Thursday, 24rd January, 1946
(Part 5 of 7)

Excerpt:

Twenty-seven were shot in Chateaubriant. Five were shot outside the Department. As to those who were shot in Chateaubriant, we know what their last moments were like. The Abbe Moyon, who was present, wrote on 22 October 1941, Page 17 of your document, the account of this execution. This is the third paragraph, Page 17:
"It was a beautiful autumn day. The temperature was mild. There had been lovely sunshine since morning. Everyone in town was going about his usual business. There was great animation in the town since it was Wednesday, which was market day. The population knew from the newspapers, and from the information it had received from Nantes, that a superior officer had been killed in a street in Nantes, but they refused to believe that such savage and extensive reprisals would be applied.
At Choisel Camp the German authorities had, for some days, put into special quarters a certain number of men who were to serve as hostages in case of special difficulties. It was from among these men that those who were to be shot on this evening of 22 October 1941 were chosen.
The Cure of Bere was finishing his lunch when M. Moreau presented himself. M. Moreau was Chief of Choisel Camp. In a few words the latter explained to him the object of his visit; that, having been delegated by M. Lecornu, the Sub-prefect of Chateaubriant, he had come to inform him that 27 men selected from among the political prisoners of Choisel, were to be executed that afternoon, and he asked Monsieur Le Cure to go immediately to attend them.
The priest said he was ready to accomplish this mission, and he went to the prisoners without delay. When the priest appeared to carry out his mission, the Sub- prefect was already with the condemned. He had come to announce the horrible fate which was awaiting them, asking them to write letters of farewell to their families without delay. It was under these circumstances that the priest arrived at the entrance to the quarters."
You will find on Page 19 the "departure for the execution," paragraph 4:
"Suddenly there was the sound of car engines. The door, which I had shut at the beginning so that we might be more private, opened. A German officer appeared. He was actually a chaplain. He said to me: 'Monsieur le Cure, your mission has been accomplished and you must withdraw immediately.'"
At the bottom of the page, the last paragraph:
"Access to the quarry where the execution took place being absolutely forbidden to all Frenchmen, I only know that the condemned were executed in three groups of nine men, that all the men who were shot refused to have their eyes bound, that young Mocquet fainted and fell, and that the last cry that sprang from the lips of all of them was an ardent 'Vive la France.'"

On Page 21 of the same document you will find the declaration of Police Officer Roussel. It also is worth reading:

"22 October 1941, at about 3.30 in the afternoon, I happened to be in the Rue du 11 Novembre in Chateaubriant, and I saw coming from
[Page 139]
Choisel Camp four or five German trucks, I could not say definitely how many, preceded by a sedan, in which was a German officer. Several civilians in handcuffs were in the trucks and were singing patriotic songs; the 'Marseillaise,' the 'Chant du Depart' and so forth. One of the trucks was filled with armed German soldiers.
I learned subsequently that these were hostages who had just been taken from Choisel Camp, to be led to the quarry of Sabliere on the Soudan Road, to be shot in reprisal for the murder in Nantes of the German Colonel Hotz.
About two hours later these same trucks came back from the quarry and drove into the court of the Chateau of Chateaubriant, where the bodies of the men who had been shot were deposited in a cellar until coffins could be made.
On coming back from the quarry the trucks were covered and no noise was heard, but a stream of blood escaped from them and left a mark on the road from the quarry to the castle.
The following day, 23 October, the bodies of the men who had been shot were put into coffins, without any French persons being present, the entrances to the chateau having been guarded by German sentinels, and were taken to the cemeteries of the surrounding communes,three coffins per commune. The Germans were careful to choose communes to which there was no regular transport service, presumably to avoid the population's going en masse to the graves of these martyrs.
I was not present at the departure of the hostages from the camp nor at the shooting in the quarry of Sabliere, as the approaches to it were guarded by German soldiers armed with machine guns."