Dean,
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
One of the more basic rules in AA is to "Take what you need and leave the rest."
You may well be one of those rare people who can get sober on their own, but I'd say that being so skeptical after only a couple of meetings might need some looking at.
Have you tried reading some of the stories in the "Big Book"?
Not everyone who gets sober at AA becomes a fanatic or a "Big Book Nazi".
Also, there are lots of different meetings and styles in AA - it's a very diverse group.
However you do it, good luck. Aloha, Hunt Johnsen

I don't know, Hunt. I've been reading Dean a long time and I still wouldn't claim to know him well enough to be skeptical of his motives in being skeptical of AA. Which I think is what you're doing. After all, if you'd read the comments to the post just before this one, you'd know this isn't "after only a couple of meetings."

I think that whatever the fuck helps Dean stay off the sauce and lead a productive life is the key. If it isn't AA, then it isn't AA. But I also think that a lot of people with no clear idea of what AA is really all about are posting advice for Dean. My take is: Let the man figure out what works. Post your concerns and support. But if you have no experience with addiction/alcoholism, or if your only experience with alcoholism is your own inebriated denial and loathing of AA, shut the fuck up already. You'll only do more harm than good.

One of the things that refugees from AA note is that every time they question AA dogma, they're told to repeat step 4 until they understand that AA is right and they are wrong.

I am not discouraging anyone from seeking help from AA or other sources. But I hope people know there are other sources, are other alternatives, and AA is not a magic wand and is not without its pitfalls. I've seen it, I've talked to people who've seen it--including people who are now active in AA.

Mine is a plea for sanity, and scrutiny. When we treat AA like a holy and unquestionable and inviolable thing, we get in trouble.

I'm probably going to try a few more meetings at different locations. But I'll go in knowing exactly what I'm looking for: a healthy sense of empowerment, a healthy sense of skepticism not based on denial, and encouragement from friends. That's what I believe I really need. Not to be told that I am powerless, that if I fail it's because I'm constitutionally incapable of being honest, or that I need to beat myself up by making a long list of all my faults--shit, I've had enough of that in my life.

Read what the founder of Women for Sobriety says. Sometimes, people are devasted by the AA experience. We need to acknowledge that, face it openly. If we don't, the problem can't get better.

The first step is admitting that there's a problem, right? Sometimes, AA has a problem. Why be afraid to say so?

12 step programs attempt to treat something that can very well be untreatable.
the obsessive compulsive behaivior that causes the addictiong to drugs or alcohol can easily be replaced by "The Program" or anything else, video games, racing, working, ect ect.
AA does work for some, but the problem is as you said, some people, especially those who never faced a real addiction, believe it to be the only way, and it don't work for everyone.

All I have to say Dean, is you and yours are in my prayers.

Dean--

There are 3 kinds of drinkers. Social drinkers, heavy drinkers and alcoholics. You may just be a heavy drinker, and not alcoholic. Only an alcoholic experiences the obsession of drinking, while sober, and the craving of that one-more-drink when drinking. A heavy drinker just drinks a lot with little or no mental baggage.

If you are one of these heavy drinkers, many of these alternatives will work for you -- all you have to do is stop drinking or even just cut back.

If you are an alcoholic, you are dead man walking -- there is NO WAY ON EARTH for you to stop drinking for any period of time on willpower and self-knowledge. I cannot tell you how many people I've buried who thought they could.

I've read your post, but not once did you say WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT AA FOR YOU. Just horror stories from other folks, ALL of whom are trying to justify something. What are you trying to justify?

Now, it makes no real difference to me what you do. I'm fine and I'll stay fine. I just hate seeing another person slit their throat with the same damn knife.

I’m extremely busy at the moment, but I feel compelled to respond to your post about your AA skepticism.

I am a recovering sex addict—specifically, recovering from online pornography addiction. I have been attending Sex Addicts Anonymous meetings for about two years now. Yes, SAA essentially lifted the 12 Steps and applied them to sex addiction.

As a lifelong LDS Christian, SAA and the 12 Steps have helped me tremendously. My relationship with God is totally different now. I have arrived at an understanding of the grace of Christ that 20 years of church attendance never accomplished. I am able to talk to people who understand what I’m going through better than any therapist—or clergyman!—was able to in the past. Anytime I’m feeling slippery, I can pick up the phone and call any of a dozen different guys, all of whom can relate.

That said, I’m going to say what some might consider an utter heresy: The 12 Steps are not the gospel of recovery.

Bill W. did not come down off the mountain with the 12 Steps etched in stone. AAMOF, he said as much: in the Big Book (look it up), he wrote that the 12 Steps were suggested as a program of recovery. Nothing more, nothing less. It’s not some sort of canonized checklist, and IMHO shouldn’t be treated as such.

I’m acquainted with a gentleman who is also a lifelong LDS Christian, and who has battled same-sex attraction for the better part of his life (he was raped by a relative at age 6, so let’s just say he’s left a bit “confused”). He has been sober from same-sex encounters for about 30 years now, and sober from other bottom-line acting out behaviors for about 15 years. He never went through any sort of 12-step program, although he will say that he was doing the essence of the 12 Steps—recognizing he had a problem bigger than him, seeking the help of his Higher Power in overcoming that problem, and so forth. He also says he believes that the 12 Steps can be a godsend for whoever works the program and follows the steps.

Now, for my unsolicited advice:

• Give it some time—at least go to a few more meetings. After decades of existence, doesn’t AA at least deserve the benefit of the doubt?
• Whatever you end up doing, practice some sort of religion. LDS, Protestant, Catholic, whatever. Even Islam, if that’s what floats your boat (just don’t go over to Israel and strap on a suicide bomber jacket, know what I mean?). Bottom line: find your Higher Power.
• Assemble some sort of support group of your own—other recovering alcoholics that can relate and who you can turn to for help when you’re feeling weak.
• Continue to retain that understanding that you have a problem that is bigger than you. It doesn’t mean it can’t be overcome, but it does mean you can’t flip that switch and stop on your own without help.
• In spite of my earlier comment about therapists, I do believe in the value of counseling. If you have the means, find a good therapist and go. You would probably do well to find somebody who does marital therapy as well.
• Side note on therapists: much like AA, give a therapist four appointments. If after that space of time things don’t seem to be improving, consider switching. No therapist is all things to all people. That doesn’t say anything bad about the therapist or the individual seeking help—that’s just the way things are.

There’s more I could say, but I’ll leave it at that. Just know we’re rooting for you, and praying for you.

BTW, I agree with Kevin. Yes, AA has attracted its share of controversy, but I have yet to hear this: what is it about AA that you don't like, that has been detrimental or harmful for you personally?

I disagree with anonymous on two things there:

Therapy is not part of the AA program -- AA has no position on therapy, or any other outside issue.

"Religion" is NOT a requirement for recovery in AA. One can have a spritual belief without having a religion. If belief in the spiritual powers of sunsets works for you, that's just fine by AA. It is actually considered gauche in AA to go on about your personal spiritual beliefs. It is SO not germane....as long as you have something, however vague. After 16 years of continuous sobriety, I have no idea if God is He, She, It or Them. Just that It exists, that It will give me power I don't normally have, and It isn't me. I will find out the truth about the rest soon enough.

As far as "other methods" are concerned, I'm sure there are some. I just don't know what they are, and I suspect that you have MUCH less information than I do. Here's one that didn't work.

Consider the possibility that I'm working on considerable experience, and you've got nothing yet but theory. My ideas today are much different than they were 16 years ago, as the world disabused so many of them.

BTW, you will note that AA's don't agree on much, including how AA works (just that it DOES), which might be an indication that we're not very good at being a "cult."

There is also Narcotics Anonymous. It is a 12 step fellowship, but my experience with NA is that they focus more on the recovery aspect and less on the drinking aspect. The focus, at least in the meeting I attend, is on what you want to do about your problem.

I also read, work steps, write, keep a journal, have a sponsor, have attended therapy, walk, have a support group of women that call me on my stuff, educate myself, and a myriad of other things.

It can not be just one thing. Dean, you are correct. Because the disease is life pervasive the recovery process must also be. You can't just treat the symptoms and be well.

In my life of recovery I have done whatever I have need to do to make it work including work on my anger, selfishness, weight, grief, relationships...

Many, many times this has and will require being with experts outside of the rooms of AA, NA or other programs.

It's your life;it's not a game show. Do what works in the moment, the best you can, as you know it in your heart.

There are many solutions. I honor you and your choices.

Therapy is not part of the AA program -- AA has no position on therapy, or any other outside issue.

Good point--which, in a way, helps validate what I was saying about the 12 Steps being a rather individual thing. Much of the idea, I think, with AA and other likeminded recovery vehicles is that some things are left to the individual to work out for themselves.

"Religion" is NOT a requirement for recovery in AA. One can have a spritual belief without having a religion. If belief in the spiritual powers of sunsets works for you, that's just fine by AA. It is actually considered gauche in AA to go on about your personal spiritual beliefs. It is SO not germane....as long as you have something, however vague.

Point taken. Notice I made an attempt at "inclusivity", even suggesting the non-Christian sect of Islam.

I think what we're getting at here is the importance of the essence of the 12 Steps: recognizing the existence of a potentially fatal condition, one which the individual can't get under control alone, one which requires complete honesty, and one which requires the acknowledgement of some sort of Higher Power to overcome.

FWIW, I think it's also vital to recognize that AA and the 12 Steps are not a religion. I think a big part of the problem is too many people would treat it as such.

FWIW, I think it's also vital to recognize that AA and the 12 Steps are not a religion. I think a big part of the problem is too many people would treat it as such.

I'm speaking from a point of ignorance here - but I'm interested, is the recognition of a spiritual force an integral part of the process; would it work for an athiest?

Kevin, all general statements are false. I am not any one of your types of drinkers. I'm clearly not an alcoholic; I stopped instantly when I noticed a problem and did not fall back into abusive drinking when I resumed. I am not a social drinker; I drink almost only by myself. I am not a heavy drinker; those evenings that I drink I might have as many as three beers or two shots, but almost never enough that I feel any intoxication.

I cannot state categorically that Eric Flint, who I mentioned in the previous thead, did not have more than discipline and self-awareness going for him, but he has made it clear that it was self-awareness which made the difference for him.

It will work for an agnostic -- someone who has no fixed belief, as that does not preclude coming to a belief.

It will work for an atheist who can accept that there is a power in the universe outside themself (but not, of course an intelligent one) from which they can draw power. Example: "The Force."

If one believes that one's personal intellect is the sum total of the power in the world, and that Physics has it all nailed down, and there is nothing they do not understand, then maybe not.

But, I would ask such an atheist "How important is this belief to you? If, after you've tried everything else, and this is the last avenue available to you, will you open your mind to this to save your life? After all, something here is working for all these people, none of who agree quite what it is."

I know very strong atheists (mostly of the Jewish post-holocaust-shock variety) who have recovered through AA. It wasn't easy for them, or anyone who tried to help. It IS a barrier, if self-imposed.

This is not an either-or proposition. Infinite degrees of maybe are OK.

triticale--

I use "social drinker" to define anyone who drinks moderately and can take it or leave it alone. Sorry if the shorthand seems to exclude.

Perhaps "moderate drinker" is a better term.

Why don't you drop all the "Maybe I need personal support to get through this" bullshit, and just take charge of your own life and body? The people at AA cannot consume your food for you. Their bodies cannot work off alcoholic effects for you. You why do you imagine you need them to think for you?

What the hell is the problem? You've got no will power, or something?

After all, in the end, it really is up to you whether or not you stay off the bottle. Yes or no?

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb

LOL. Oh my my my.

OK, do you remember that scene in Aliens 3, the one in the series without the guns, where they are on that far away planet? The double-y-chromosome prisoners at one point attempt to trap the alien by antagonizing it and getting it to follow them. At one point, one prisoner just gets through the door before the alien snatches at him. The door slams, the prisoner safely behind. Then he turns into the camera and yells, "Man, this thing is PISSED OFF."

Dean's sobering up, and boy is he pissed.

A-hem. Now:

It's your sobriety vel non Dean. The issue is not the value, effectiveness or exclusivity of AA. It's not about AA, its real and perceived shortcomings, and its real or perceived sins against others, or the purported horrible effect it has on women (LOL, nice try on that one, Dr. Dean).

AA is not on trial here. You are not engaged in research to prove or disprove AA's claims. To suddenly bring up AA's perceived shortcomings is a not-very-clever smokescreen diverting you from the real issue.

Which is, you are pissed off. Your brain is unpickling, and you don't like it, and so you're lashing out. Remember: You decided to stop drinking. That was your choice. Not AA's. Not your father's. Not the state of Michigan's. Your choice. So don't going teeing off on AA ...

AA is simply a place where you can find people who can tell you what worked for them when they made the exact same choice you made eight days ago and this morning. People who went through the same unpickling. People who know the anger. If you don't want to know how they did it or try a proven way of getting sober, that's your choice, too.

For those out there in readerland who may consider AA, remember: The AA program works. It doesn't tell you EVERY possible way of getting sober; it will tell you one. But guess what: You will only need one way.

If you follow the AA method, you WILL get sober. After a year or two, you will be in good enough shape to make whatever decision you make about AA's overall program from there. It's not easy, and you will hear things you may not want to hear, but others will go through that with you. Ii's a fairly simple program and anyone can get it.

Realistically, the 12 steps aren't that big a deal. Basically, it boils down to this: You admit you can't stop drinking on your own, decide someone or something else can help you, and you let them. You get really honest with yourself, take stock of your life, clean house emotionally, fix what's broke, learn to cope with what can't be fixed, and then you try not to break more stuff. And oh yeah, you help the next guy that comes in the door.

That's it in a nutshell. It's not this evil brainsucking philosophical conundrum. In the meantime, you meet friends who help you, and love you, and are there for you ... not to mention the miracle that happens: the desire to drink goes. Yup, gone. Many people praise God when this happens. I don't apologize for that.

Dean,
There is no one solution that fits all. Just becuase AA has worked for lots of people does not mean it is right for you. I think you are bing smart, take what you can from it.
To many people in today's society have fallen in love with process over results. It is the results, the goal that is important not how you get there.
Keep up the good work.

Arnold

I'm curious as to why you care so much if Dean uses a support group of some kind to help overcome his addiction to a chemical or not? You almost seem offended by the idea of him getting help. Do you feel that because you are certain in your own life that you need no help whatsoever for anything that you can impose this certainty on another person? Can you decide for another person how strong they are or can be? Is it wise to say "I'm self-reliant in every respect and so are you"?

If there is one truth I have learned in my 60 some odd years, is that I can only know what is right for me. I cannot live inside anyone's skin or mind. They make their own decisions and live with their own consequences. It's nice that you apparently have never needed help. We are happy for you. However, it's pretty arrogant to insist that this total self-reliance is the only way for others as well.

Dean will get help or not. He will succeed either way, I believe because he's, well, he's just Dean... an extremely unique and self aware person. He's light years ahead of most of us in this respect...else how would he ever have even reached the point where he is now? Many people hit rock bottom a lot later than Dean has. (Rock-bottom being the point where you know you've GOT A PROBLEM according to AA). I think it is interesting that Dean is sharing his search with us but he doesn't need any of us to make his choices and he doesn't have to justify his own choices either.

My own husband, an alcoholic of the first rank, quit drinking cold turkey about 9 years ago...no meetings, no higher power, no therapy, no nagging from me (ineffective), nothing, nada except a blood profile test that indicated approaching liver damage. Is he a true alcoholic or just a heavy drinker? I don't know. All I know is he KNOWS he can never take another drink if he want's to keep his liver pink and healthy. He made his choice and accepts the challenge. I once believed that an alcoholic could not quit drinking alone. He proved me wrong. His solution worked for HIM. I hesitate to insist that it works for others.

We need to stop pushing AA at people. It is not the only program that works, it is not the only one with a good track record, and it is absolutely not without its dangers or its dark side,

I certainly agree it isn't for everyone. I don't know if perhaps someone's already noted this one, but in fact I've talked to some AA members who are upset at the way AA is pushed on people by, say, the courts. A very close relative of mine who attended for years pointed out that court-ordered AA attendance not only hurts people who might benefit from alternative treatments, but also brings down the overall quality of the AA group itself. Or as she put it, "It's difficult to stay focused on changing our lives for the better when half the people at the meeting clearly don't want to be there."

There are no one-size-fits-all solutions, ultimately.

Kevin: I've encountered severe alcoholics who fled AA and went to Moderation Management and are now successful and functional adults. Don't deny the reality of their lives and their recoveries by saying it "doesn't work" based on one incident. If AA were held to that standard, then AA would be the laughingstock of the world.

Something you should be aware of is that the founder of MM left it, and joined AA because she was finding that moderation didn't work for her. She had been going to AA for some time when she got into her DUI accident that killed those people. So, would it be right for me to conclude that AA caused her to drink and drive?

I fully intend to think hard about the MM approach, because it's been proven, repeatedly, in clinical practice and among people I've talked to. I've exchanged mail with alcoholics who fled AA, were miserable in AA, who kept drinking while in AA, whose lives were saved by Moderation Management. Don't deny their stories or their recoveries, because that's not right.

What I'm grappling with right now is with whether lifelong abstinence is really what I need, or something else is what I need. Regardless, I plan on spending a good long time completely sober first.

I happen to know people who got into severe drunk-driving accidents after going to AA meetings. I also used to know one guy who went out and got drunk every day with his sponsor--they'd go to a meeting together, then go get shitfaced. Does this make AA a failure?

I truly admire you Dean. You clearly have balls the size of coconuts. I had mixed emotions when I saw your initial post on this subject. On the plus side, your brutal honesty came through again. On the down side, you have now opened yourself up to drive-by psychology and analysis. I have NO advice for you Dean. I've offered up a few prayers for you and your family. I will continue to do so. I wish I had a few bucks for the tip jar as well but alas, I don't.

There is a web site you should look at.

smartrecovery.org

Arnold: Why don't you drop all the "Maybe I need personal support to get through this" bullshit, and just take charge of your own life and body?

Because Ayn Rand died a bitter, warped, frustrated, and lonely old woman whose entire life was an object lesson in why Objectivist principles, as pretty as they may seem on paper, do not map properly to the human brain.

I have taken control of my life, and have chosen to use certain tools to help me deal with what is clearly both a chemical and a physical problem. Like any thinking human animal, I intend to use any tool at my disposal which will help me to reach my intended goal--health and control over an addiction. Like any human animal, I am not a herd animal but I am a pack animal, and healthy functioning requires socialization.

I have absolutely no shame whatsoever in seeking the advice and comradeship and support of those who might be able to advise me, give me insights, and help me focus my will appropriately. This is normal, human, and healthy, and I take no shame in it.

What the hell is the problem? You've got no will power, or something?

If I had no will power, I'd have drunk myself to death by now.

After all, in the end, it really is up to you whether or not you stay off the bottle.

Of course. But a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. A doctor who treats himself has a fool for a patient.

Only a fool, or a cultish Objectivist, believes he can stand alone and face every problem down alone.

I somehow doubt that even 1% of the world's billionaires are Objectivists, or think or act even remotely like either John Galt or Howard Roarke. So take yer culty objectivist/individualist/be-tough-stand-alone bunk and sell it to people at airports like the Hare Krishnas, I ain't buying.

I am not competent to evaluate any other program than AA. I sobered up with AA, have stayed sober since 1985. Would something else have worked as well? Better? The only way to answer that is to go back to drinking and then sober up with one, stay sober for 18 and a half years, go back to drinking, sober up with yet another, on and on. I doubt my wife would sign on to that course.
There is simply no way for any one person to evaluate all the possible courses of action.
What I see is the people who've suceeded in one program or another claiming it's the best. Those who've failed in one program or another claiming it's the worst.
It's very seldom that I'm the smartest guy in a crowded room. I'm smart enough to know that if one thing isn't working, try something else.
Every word Dean wrote critical of AA is absolutely true, as far as they go. I would submit that his words are not an indictment of the AA Program but rather of it's members, some of them. I would strongly suspect that ANY program of recovery that is based on working with a group of people would share similar drawbacks. I suspect this, I cannot know this, I cannot test them for myself. I'm already sober.
So, what can I do, if I would like to support a guy who writes a Blog I enjoy? Well, there are a few things I've learned about staying sober that seem to be more or less universal, from the simply obvious, if you don't drink, you don't get drunk, to the things only someone experienced with a newly-sober drunk knows, like it's normal and expected to have one HELL of a time learning how to sleep through the night, sober. I can pass those on. I can point out the next likely phase of early recovery.
I can let Dean decide for himself which method he wants to use. If it works I can encourage him and cheerlead for him. If it doesn't work I can encourage him to try something else. Nobody is a failure until he stops trying. I can point out that, perhaps, the reason one person fails at one method and succeeds at another may not be because the second program is 'better' than the first or that some magical change turned a failure to a success but, more simply the second program or method is better suited to that individual.
I share Dean's discomfort with some of the problems that women have in AA. My home group deals with those problems in two ways. The first is a seperate women's meeting once per week. The second is that the sisterhood simply surrounds and embraces the newly sober woman and keeps that up until she can stand on her own. I don't pretend to know what goes on in that women's meeting. I wouldn't be surprised to discover I'm better off not knowing. I have seen what the sisterhood does when they spot a guy trying to take advantage of the confusion and vulnerability of that newcomer woman. It ain't pretty. I think I'd rather take my chances with Mike Tyson. At least he spits out what he chews off. The guys in my group have learned, perhaps like Pavlov's dogs, that when we see a new face that happens to belong to a woman, we say hi. We ask if they're new. Then we introduce them to the women and back off. Most of us because it's the right thing to do, some of us out of raw fear. Me, I'm not all that interested in WHY someone conforms to the minimum behavior standards, I'm interested that they do. I will not return to a group of any kind that does not have, and enforce, standards of behavior. That is one suggestion for Dean.
I'm just as uncomfortable with the near automatic assumtion that the spouse of an alcoholic is The Enabler. My wife didn't enable my drinking, I was perfectly capable of drinking. Hell, towards the end of the drinking it was 'get it yourself, you sumbitch and you're sleeping on the couch!' Damned uncomfortable couch, too. My wife needed a little help getting it clear in her head that my drinking was mine. It wasn't her fault, nor her responsibility. My recovery wasn't her responsibility, either. In early recovery she wasn't all that happy with the amount of my time and energy it took. Now, especially since I'm retired, when I get on her nerves she chases me out of the house to a meeting. Do I need a meeting? Does she need the time? Who cares? I have someplace to go and it's cheaper than learning to play Golf.

Bill: Ya didn't even bother reading any of the material I linked to, did ya buddy? Please don't armchair psychoanalyze me, man. If AA can't stand up to rigorous scrutiny and criticism, then there's something wrong with it. I am merely suggesting to you that all wisdom is not to be found in The Big Book.

Peter: Well put, and you give me much to think about.

I am not angry with AA. AA evangelism gets annoying, and people who deny that AA can have a dark side also bug me a little. But I know it's a lifesaver. I've seen that too.

I've also seen, as Ilyka notes, people forced into AA against their will, and man, I can't think that that would do anything but mess them and everybody else up at those meetings.

I am struggling to construct the right toolkit, under the assumption that one size does not fit all. I've talked to pro-AA people, anti-AA people, and people with decades of sobriety who have a jaundiced view of it but still think it's valuable. I find all this enormously helpful.

And I'm still sober, by the way.

Dean,
At the risk of seeming glib, it sure sounds like you are still in denial - that or you really haven't hit bottom yet.
Talking about how maybe Moderation Management is the way to go seems a little premature. Just grit your teeth and don't drink for a couple of months. If you are confortable with not drinking and with yourself after a prolonged period of abstinence, go for it.

For those still curious about religion and AA- the best advice I've heard is that " Religion is for people who don't want to go to hell - spirituality is for those who have been there and don't want to go back." Yes Virginia, there are atheists in AA.

Unless you're court-ordered, AA is still voluntary and your vituperation seems a little misplaced. All any of us in the fellowship can say is that it worked for us. Aloha, Hunt

Arnold

I didn't realize you are an objectivist as Dean implied. If so, that does explain your remarks and I withdraw my questions. While I found Ayn Rand's writings (and Nathanal Brand's as well) interesting in the 60s and 70s, the intellectual loneliness imposed by such a philosophy struck me as unappealing and seemed to be born out of an extreme response to collectivism as seen in Marxism and Stalinism as practiced in communist Russia. Anyway, please just ignore my comments. I see now where you are coming from.

Hunt: Hunt, what denial? All I'm giving you are facts: there are people who've left AA angry, hurt, confused, and worse off, only to find hope and healing in S.O.S., Women for Sobriety, Moderation Management, Rational Recovery, CBT, or through other programs.

I didn't make that up. It's simply the truth.

I again urge you to read the story of Jean Kirkpatrick, and ask yourself why it is that she found sobriety by leaving AA, and wound up founding a national organization, with chapters all over the nation, to help women find sobriety using principles that are actually in direct opposition to the core beliefs of AA?

Simply sharing these facts with you does not make me an angry person, or a person in denial. At least, I don't think so. I'm wrestling with a horrible beast. I recognize that, and I intend to use every weapon in the arsenal that will fit my hand.

I read the links before I posted, Dean. What's your point?

It may be, Dean, that the emotional make-up and history of an individual may be the determinate in how well AA works for any one person. What you may see as public humiliation, another soul might experience as theraputic public confession and that individual may respond very well to this catharsis. Their catharsis may be anathema to another's spirit depending possibly on their own experiences as a developing child or teen.

Shame and guilt are very personal in experience and may even be determined largely by genetic personality traits such as shyness or extrovertion. I've never been bothered much myself with guilt once I figured out that we all are flawed to some extent and that I like all normal people did not set out to hurt myself or others deliberately. But other poor tortured souls may be in agony without forgiveness over the same "sin" I committed but now feel absolved from after reflection (and restitution if necessary.) Also, I believe that the level of pride we carry, the kind of pride that won't allow us to easily give up our own innate defensiveness and which usually stems from too much shame heaped on as a child, can make public confession not only a torture but counter-productive and ineffective in giving any relief. I do notice that pride can be the biggest obstacle of all to long lasting recovery from addiction.

I like others here will be hoping and praying that in the days and weeks to come we will see first 8 days, 8 weeks, 8 months and then a year of sobriety for you. Whether you use a self-help group or another method, I myself have great faith in your strength and intelligence in conquering the obstacle life has set in your path. As I said, my own husband of 25 years quit all by himself 9 years ago. My nephew did the same think 14 years ago (of course he got 3 duis in one year and was sentenced to treatment and then did a little jail time - that's a great motivator not to mention the threat of losing his wife and kids). Neither one of these two liked AA and only went a few times. Other than that they just did it. I don't recommend that method because it often fails. You are a lot smarter than BOTH these two guys so you are one step up on them and I'm sure you'll choose the method that is right for you.

Best of luck and just do it One Day At A Time.

You're thinking too much, Dean. Those voices in your head just won't leave you alone. AA is fine. It's made up of all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs and at all stages of a journey.

If you feel uncomfortable with one group, find another with a different mix of people. Participate when you're ready.

Don't worry about 12-stepping (I never did that). The important thing is to let go of control over yourself. It's not discipline you lack nor need. Not at all. It's the opposite.

That was the biggest lesson I learned...I let go and have been sober for 25 years. Haven't been to a meeting for 23.

Help is out there. Try to accept it.

Bill: Well, I dunno man, the whole "nice try" thing sure struck me as a little dismissive.

Several family members have been pushing, pushing, pushing AA at me, and the suggestion that I'm "in denial" if I don't want AA has been constantly repeated at me. I've gotten a lot of it here too. I confess, that does get annoying. Why must I be "in denial" if I have doubts and wish to investigate multiple angles of attack?

Still more upsetting to are the letters I've gotten from people who've dropped out of AA--and almost to a one, they share the desparing assumption that it didn't help them because there's something wrong with them. It practically suffuses every word they write. "Constitutionally incapable of taking an honest inventory" seems to have been burned into their psyches, and now they're afraid to even go back into a meeting, and they assuage the pain with more booze instead.

I can't fix these people. I can barely fix myself. But I can look around, do some research, see what else may be out there. And I note again:

Bill W. has nothing on Jean Kirkpatrick, who got sober by leaving AA. Repeat: got sober by leaving AA.

She wound up founding a movement with several principles directly antithetical to AA philosophy. Most especially by firmly and loudly and insistently rejecting almost all of the 12 steps. No, you are not powerless over alcohol. No, you do not need to admit the exact nature of all your wrongs. No, you do not need to make a list of all the persons you have harmed. No, you do not have to make amends. No, you do not have to make a personal inventory. What you need is healing, and we can help you with that.

That's their message. Think about that. Sober by rejecting all of that.

Am I angry for saying so? Well, only in the sense that it bugs me if someone tells me I'm doomed to failure if I have issues with a lot of it too.

I do have issues. Will those issues make me get drunk? We'll see.

Looks like I'll be going to another AA meeting soon though. For all my talk, I think I'll keep going for a while. What the hell, I can keep my mouth shut and concentrate on meeting people who are in tune with my particular struggle.

Stop it. Let the man alone already.

We didn't drink for him and we're not going to get or stay sober/clean for him. All we can do is love him enough so he can love himself. If and when he asks, we can share our stories.

Enough.

Today, I am grateful for the new rose that bloomed in my yard, it looks like an early spring. You? That's the way we do it...Focus on what works--gratitude, support, positive outcomes.

Dean--Congratulations on 9 days...Let's see, how many hours is that? 216 I think. Wow. Great job. Awesome. Just lovely!

*shrug* Commenter up at the top said it best: "Take what you need and leave the rest."

As I said in a comment on a post below, I've been in recovery for 21 years, as of Feb 3rd, this year. Not just alchohol, but opium, speed, THC, and other narcotics free. I started in AA and NA, but I haven't been to an AA meeting in probably 14 years, and haven't felt a personal urge to go to one. Nor have I felt an urge to drink or drug.

Not certain I would have kicked it initially without the 12 Step program.

I've read a majority of the books on your reading list. I don't agree with all of the points put forth in them. There is a "dark side" to AA, sure - it's the same "dark side" there is to everything else: it has human beings involved in it. ;)

The downside in AA is that recovery involves people who tend to have a lot of people with varying amounts of personality disorder. And they bring those personality disorders to everything they do. Doesn't matter what it is - everything they do. So... you get guys who stalk AA meetings looking for vulnerable chicks, Big Book Nazis, 12-Step Evangelists, people with power trips, people with abusive personalities, people who are just plain fucking nuts. Wah. Part of the package of associating with humans.

You also get a lot of truly fantastic and genuine people who are both helpful and interested in recovering from our common problem. And those people are a help. Right, IB Bill?

If you're a strong willed and stubborn son of a bitch like me, you gravitate towards the good people, and you give the dreck the back of your head. If someone is inclined to seek out destructive people, they'll find them in AA just like they will any place else. Some folks tend to gravitate towards the people and relationships that are the worst for them.

Regardless, I'm neither defending AA nor denigrating it. It worked for me, at a time when I honestly didn't give a shit wether I lived or died.

You might want to consider that blasting AA while you're strugling with initial recovery just might be doinga disservice to any of your readers who might be among those for whom AA can work.

The issue here isn't AA, Dean. The issue here is Dean Esmay not drinking, one day at a time. By whatever works for you that enables you to do that. Period.

I may not have much, but I've walked away from 21 years of recovery with one truth: If I don't pick up a drink today, I don't get drunk.

And if I do get drunk today... I may not have another recovery in me. That's pretty black and white. Way I was headed, I would have been dead in a few years... and I might have taken people with me.

Like I said in my comment below, if there's any thing I can do, if you ever need someone to talk to, commiserate wiith, or even just to snark at, don't hesitate to email me and exchange numbers. It's not about AA or Not-AA, it's about you not picking up the drink, today.

As I said in my concluding thoughts to the article that started this discussion:

"I worry about saying all this because I worry that I may encourage people in recovery to stay away from tools that might help them, or encourage people who have a problem to avoid seeking help. But the more time goes on, the more I also worry that people may be destroyed by the belief that AA is the only option, or 'the only thing that works,' as so many 12-steppers will tell you."

But you know what? I take that back. I am not responsible for other people's recovery, or lack thereof. If asking tough questions and pointing to alternatives makes me dangerous, then I'll be dangerous. If someone dies because I asked tough questions and pointed to alternatives to AA, then they'll just have to die, and I'll just have to find some way to live with that.

Hell, maybe I'll make "Stay away! Dean is dangerous, he just might drive you to drink!" the new Dean's World motto. :-)

I mean, seriously guys. You're coming on like a ton of bricks.

Dean: (1) I'm on your side. (2) You wouldn't be the first guy to need to get hit with a ton of bricks :) (3) My mistake is talking to you online in a way that I would talk to someone just getting sober in person. It doesn't work as well online, and there's the lack of anonymity thing that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Truth is, it seemed to me that you needed to laugh. In person, I'd have had you laughing at the Aliens thing. It would've involved gruesome hand gestures and snarled faces and dark and scary voices....you've have laughed. And then we could've moved on.

I'm not trying to disinvalidate any thoughts or criticisms you may have about AA. Sorry if I was dismissive but I was trying to help you get over a hurdle; for one thing, a lot of this kind of stuff comes down to pure practicals, stuff like: Which organization has a meeting in your area on the night you need one?

And I mean what I talked about my simplification of the steps. As long as you recognize the steps for what they are, they're OK. People sometimes mistake them for therapy ... don't do that and you'll be fine. But I don't want to say too much more because that's putting the cart before the horse. The steps are the cart. Don't worry about them for at least a year. You need to deal with the horse ...

But yeah, I get the pressure thing. Sorry if I've added to it. Everything out of your mouth about AA, I've said myself years ago with more colorful language. Yet in the fullness of time, I've come to realize AA's value. And it's not a minor value; they've helped millions of folks.

That said, the "take what you need and leave the rest" mentality is important. If you don't like someone, don't hang out with him. If you do like someone -- that is, they have the kind of mature sobriety you're looking for, hang out with them. You'll be surprised at the diversity of opinion.

Some of my best friends I've met in AA. My point is there is a far wider hoop here for you to jump through than perhaps you think. Much wider.

Remember: AA is just two drunks sitting around a coffee pot getting through another 24 hours.

And I'm not trying to get you to do anything. My larger point is not "AA or else" but "the real issue isn't AA (no matter how validate your criticisms may be), it's you." I stand by that.

Does that help?

Sure. I'm not mad.

I still like WFS' 13 Affirmations one hell of a lot more than I like AA's 12 steps. But I'm not a chick, so I guess I'll have to live with what I'm handed. :-)

Well, Affirmation 12 is certainly out :)

By the way, I do seem to have blown the whole "Anonymous" thing right to hell, haven't I?

:-)

Well, you can always change your name and use Dean Esmay as a pseudonym. Otherwise, you'll have to be the blogging equivalent of a Hollywood Celebrity or athlete checking into Hazelden.

Heya guy... I'm not saying you don't have valid points or concerns. I'm just saying that:

Right now, Dean getting clean is the main thing. Anything else is a distraction from that.

Heh. You survive six months or a year sober, via AA or the alternative of your choice [whatever works], then, if you still think it's a fight that needs fighting after sober reflection [pun intentional] - go for it.

AA will still be there in a year. The alternative programs you pointed out to steer people to will still be there in a year. The problems that are and aren't in all of them [and the alternatives have some] will still be there. They're still worth tackling when you've got a firm foundation, tackle it. That make any sense?

9 days in, getting clean is the important thing. 9 days in, keeping Dean alive and sober, one day at a time, is the important thing. Not drinking today is the important thing.

*shrug* Take it for what it's worth from someone who tried several times, and didn't have that simple thing stick until it damned near killed me. ;)

"By the way, I do seem to have blown the whole "Anonymous" thing right to hell, haven't I?

:-)" - Dean

I wouldn't worry about it. A lot of my best friends sober don't sweat the anonymity thing very much.

By the way, my name's Sherman Barnes, and I'm a recovering drunk. Please ta meet ya.

Now we're both blown. ;)

Dean,

I've told you all along that I've admired Ayn Rand's literature and her philosophy, ever since I started reading her in the late 1960s and early 1960s when I was doing my undergraduate degree at the University of Illinois.

But I sure as hell never said I would have wanted to make love to her. (My name is Arnold Harris, not Nathaniel Branden.)

As for objectivism, the philosophy that developed largely -- but not totally -- from her writings, it is a philosophic ideal, and not any kind of western secular sharia that could easily be put into day to day practice. I think everyone would agree that no society is a tabula rasa that can simply be filled with someone else's universal design for living. Nevertheless, objectivism is the one philosophy I consider worthy of implementing, and it is being studied increasingly among thinking people like you and me.

Now what does all this have to do with you and your recent alcohol problem? Not much. But I stand on what I wrote. In the long run, the only activity that really works in getting rid of a bad habit is the full-scale exercize of your own will power. But if AA can help you do that, then go for it.

Because you're the only man who can tell you what works best for you. I whipped the smoking habit a long time ago on will power alone. I beat the bodyfat habit just recently, with will power-based dietary control plus daily exercise. But I never have been an alcoholic, just as I never have been a gambler. So I don't basically understand these bad habits and how they capture and doom people.

Jane M,

Ayn Rand's writing and modern objectivism were, are, and remain a response not merely to communism, but to all forms of statism and collectivism. An excellent case can be made that nearly all human societies are no freer from collectivism today than they were in the era of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and all the lesser totalitarians. In facing down islamic wahhabism, we are threatened by a most virulent form of purposeful enslavement and forced surrender of free will ever seen in human history.

One of our problems in the west, and perhaps especially in the United States, is that we have no philosophy of freedom with which to answer the wahhabists. In other words, are we truly willing to work at living lives of self-reliant self-sustainable producing, thinking and functioning people? Probably not. Everyone wants his or her hand-out from a government which simply taxes other people in order to provide these hand-outs. After a while, it gets to be our own insidious national form of slavery. But are we prepared to change any of this? Probably not.

As for the coldness of objectivism? Well, I've got bloggers to heat up my daytime hours with argument, and Stefi to keep me warm at night.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Dean --

That post about Moderation Management was in reponse to your other links to horror stories.

Moderation Management may work for some. It would never have worked for me. But I'd be lying if I said that I didn't try 97 things before I went to AA. One of the great faults of people who've (finally) recovered through AA is that we try too hard to short-circuit the process for others. We just hate to see others make all the mistakes we did. Yet we all made them, so what do we really expect?

I read your story, and there are great similarities. Functional drunk, things going great, then the slow slide into problem after problem, every one of which is ignored or pushed aside until they really started to add up. Then 3 years of stop-and-start, resolutions, changing diet, getting more excercise, only drinking beer or wine, whatever. Morning drinking, DT's during the day, work becoming shoddy, isolation, the booze becoming more important than most anything else. I didn't actually get to AA until I was down to Plan X. Plan Y was suicide. There was no Plan Z. Basically, I had to be at the point where I had no plans left.

You may not be there yet, or you may find an easier way. Best luck, and I mean that.

But if not, remember that AA may yet work.

Now, I had a problem with AA at first -- I'm what the old-timers called a "damn intellectual", always questioning what they took for fact. National Merit scholar, degree in physics, blah blah blah.

It took nearly 10 years of living sober before I understood WHY they took it for fact. It's not something that can be intellectualized. It's based on experience and is quite empirical -- the collective experience of over 10 million people, passed along person to person.

Yes, AA has its failures. I've seen many. But nearly all of them failed because they didn't do the deal. I am seldom surprised at who "goes out" and who stays.

If you give someone a map to a minefield, and they throw it away and stomp off blindly, you really oughtn't blame the map for the result.

Oh, regarding willpower, there is an Apollo astronaut in AA. Anyone want to tell him about willpower?

In case there are other dual diagnosis types reading this thread --

Alcohol started being a problem for me in the mid '80s. After trying unsuccessfully to quit, I found the group support in AA made the difference. However, my underlying, lifelong depression and anxiety were untouched and continued to drag me down despite all efforts and treatment. Spirituality, I don't get; I think they broadcast it on AM and I receive on FM. The social aspects were also very uncomfortable for a strongly introverted guy like me. Disappointed and even more demoralized, I went back eventually to drinking, and it slowly became a more serious problem.

Fast forward ...

I was getting over a wicked hangover when Dean posted his announcement, and I decided to join him in getting sober. So far, 16 days, abstinence has been no sweat, especially knowing I'm honor bound to 'fess up to Dean otherwise. Living alone in retirement, I have no other external check on my behavior. The old problems are still there, merely in sharper relief. Maybe when my system has settled down, I'll go back to the shrink and try yet another antidepressant.

For me, AA was good first aid, but not a remedy for what really ails me. I have no horror stories about it. The people were nice enough, even helpful. It was an AA member who noticed that I was always depressed after a year of active participation in the program, and referred me to a psychiatrist. With my blue collar background, the thought of seeing one had never entered my mind.

So, the point for those with serious pre-existing conditions: AA can help, and life is perceptibly better without alcohol. Just don't expect too much.

Making a list of people we have harmed.

Well, ponder that for a moment. Well, ok I will just ponder it.

Is it to make me feel awful? Is it to make me feel terrible? Is it not to make me anything? Ah, is it like an inventory since I run a small business and I want to make sure of all the things I have so I can keep my *business* running smoothly, so that I can go forward looking back at what I did making sure my customers were taken care of? If they were not then, maybe I should see where I failed with that customer so I could better serve them in the future?

I am of the thought that this making a list and checking it twice...gonna find out who's naughty or nice (excuse me, I'm a nut, added the naughty nice bit, but hey! it works), is a pretty Healing proposition, work order, christmas list, healing list, forgiveness list, customer care list.

It is not a list that you Have to show ANYONE. It is a list for YOU and only you. I believe it is one of personal growth, that is what it possibly accomplishs. You share it with your good sponsor in AA that has many many years of sobriety, or your Dearly Beloved, or your Priest or Rabbi or Counselor or your whoever or simply read your list queitly maybe call a few people and tell them you want to talk to them about a few things.
I would of course use caution and say this, make sure when you call them that they First are feeling good and are receptive to talk, if they are not, put them down to call again at Their convience and work a time when the two of you can talk and openly discuss the problem of the past and work through the difficulty. Don't ever push your will on another person. They may be going through a very difficult time and your phone call could one, not be the best timing or you know what? That very list you dreaded making could very well be the best thing you could do for that individual you are calling because you just called at a very low time in their life and they need someone to talk to.

I believe making a list of people that we may have hurt could be a very healthy step in recovering a long and beautiful journey to sobriety. Life is sweet when we are honest and hold no grudges or pain and sorrow from our mistakes from the past. That is one of the things that seems to keep us from propelling forward...our past and letting go. How many songs on the radio mention Memories.

You mentioned your Mother loves AA Dean, maybe, just maybe and remember here kid...I'm the Grandma of the group... she may have found some pretty good teachings in and about that organization and some of those people...and afterall kid... isn't a Mother the first woman we love?

I adored my Father for that Dean. He let everyone of us kids know his Mother was his gal. Now I mean that with the utmost respect and consideration here. My grandmother went through some rough times here Dean and he stood by that dear old woman and my Mom knew how my Dad adored her.

You take it easy. Easy does it! One Day at a Time kid, we all love ya.

Good for you, Dean, for having the tenaciousness to open this can of worms (your opinion of AA).

Re: sobriety - Way to go! Stay true to yourself.

Dean,

The only thing I know about AA is that it helped my best friend from grade school get sober and stay that way. Since then, he has met a woman and gotten married. He says it made all the difference to him.

If you find another path to sobriety, fine.