We over at Blogs for Bush are starting to enjoy this show...and we're being mighty entertained over at Democratic Underground as they spin their Rove-centered theories about how this came out...

The story, of course, could be entirely BS....but its sure fun to watch.

Perhaps we should let the DU know that Daily Kos confirms it was Clark that started it...

Rosemary,

We could let DU know that God confirmed that Clark started it, and they wouldn't believe it...did ya see Frank J's "Universal Democratic Underground Thread"...its a knee-slapper...

Yeah, I did. Did you see that the DU saw it and tried to be all "holier than thou" about it. HA!

I thought adultery was a crime. Did you violate your own decree?

That being said, everyone knows that Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, Dubya, and Clinton committed adultery. It's almost a presidential prerequisite. Plus, it's a personal issue, not a public one. I can't believe you took the low road on this one. I'm shocked.

Adultery a crime? Since when?

It's shitty behavior Tim, not a crime. No crime, no foul that is my rule.

I can't believe you took the low road on this one. I'm shocked.

Kerry ain't getting a pass from me , especially since it was Clark that started it.

[sigh] Let the games begin I guess.

BTW, adultery isn't a crime in most states.

Was under the impression that Eisenhower's affair was when he was overseas during the war, and hadn't heard the rumors about George W.

Ffffffwhatever. I'll consider voting for Kerry so long as the intern doesn't look like an eel.

Does Kerry have records that would prove him innocent of these charges, but is refusing to make them public? If so, then I say "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!"

Since when did adultery become a crime? You state it yourself-it's a personal issue, not a public one.

I'm just sayin....

Sorry, but I feel too...here we go again. I'd rather take the high road.

I'm just observin'...

Hi guys,

Don't pay the ransom. I just escaped.

What's this I hear about Kerry? All I can find is the thing on Drudge, and that hasn't budged in the last couple of hours.

What do we know for sure?

Well, Inscrutable American,

Adultery is in fact a personal issue, not a public one.

But so too was the National Guard personnel file of George W Bush. But the Democrat wind machine nevertheless chose unwisely to attack W based on innuendo about his service to the United States in the early 1970s, and compel him to authorize release of his actual service records.

So. He he has sown the wind shall reap the whirlwind.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Ara,

We don't really know squat...and there could be nothing to it...after all, the rumors that the Elder Bush had had an affair fizzled for lack of evidence....so it might be with this one.

Its just fun to watch Democrats eat their own....

Ara,

I linked Kos under Wes Clark's name. That and the Drudge is all we know about. Nothing in the way of actual proof - just Democratic slime machine so far. Chris Lehane has his fingers on it, that I'm sure of.

Oh, I forgot to add:

Democrats must be better lovers (or at least better cocksmen) than us Republicans. The women those people cheat with are consistently -- and sometimes flamboyantly -- better looking than the ones with whom Republicans have backstreet affairs. I'm thinking back especially about Senator Ted Chappaquidick, Senator "new ideas" Hart with that beautiful model in his lap aboard the USS Monkey Business, and Bill Clinton's Arkansas and DC harems and reported rape victims.

Since behavior is largely culturally defined and shaped, I presume there are a lot more examples of Democrat bedroom bandits than just these. As for Republicans, I think the most you can charge our leaders with include such mundane stuff as covering up political campaign burglaries, stumbling on Air Force One boarding steps, vomiting all over the Japanese prime minister, and mumbling like idiots during TV interviews.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

I just realized that Tim said that GWB cheated on his wife, when?

Same with Reagan, when?

Hey Arnold--don't forget that Kerry was supposedly doing this while suffering from prostate cancer. That's SOME performance.

Sure gets everyone away from asking questions about The Guard Years, doesn't it?

That being said, everyone knows that Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, Dubya, and Clinton committed adultery.

Really? Reagan? I don't think so. Dubya? Hasn't been a whisper except from the voices in your head.

Kerry was supposedly doing this while suffering from prostate cancer. That's SOME performance.

Don't forget that many men don't realize that they have prostate cancer until the exam. Many times it the test finds it before any symptoms occur. Even then, not everyone has all the symptoms. Not all symptoms are pain related.

Sure gets everyone away from asking questions about The Guard Years, doesn't it?

Thank Wes Clark and Chris Lehane for that.

Rosemary:
I just got done scanning Daily Kos. I think I'm up to speed. One question: is there any particular Democrat who has NOT been fingered in this?

My favorite tidbit (and this one's for you, Rose): A couple of years ago, when asked how she would have handled a philandering husband (compared to say, Hillary), Teresa Heinz Kerry answered simply by making "a gunshot sound" with her mouth.

Yowza!

P.S. to Arnold:
You forgot about JFK and Marilyn Monroe. Heh.

I.T.,

Maybe they should give Kerry another medal, for his alleged performance above and beyond (far beyond!) the call of duty, while "wounded", yet.

Ara,

A major portion of Limbaugh's EIB radio broadcast slot today was on Kerry and the unknown ketchup doll(s). Rush says he is certain this is all Bill Clinton's doing, on grounds that Clinton wants all the Dems to self-destruct this year, leading the way for Hilary to waltz through the Democrat presidential lineup in 2008, when there will be no incumbent running. If memory serves, I think he mentioned Chris Lehane as the behind-the-scenes manipulator.

I think Rush may be Machiavellian over all this, and that Kerry will in fact be the Democrat candidate this year, that he will lose to Bush in November, and that Edwards, the North Carolina John F Kennedy, will be first man at bat for the Democrat candidacy in 2008. Hilary has far too much baggage to get elected. I think the Republican who will have first shot at the nomination in 2008 will be Bill Frist of Tennessee. He and Edwards have relatively similar, smooth, professional southern backgrounds and are both highly electable. But I've been surprised about political outcomes before, and I could be dead wrong about all this.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Damn, Ara,

I plumb forgot about JFK and Marilyn and the American Camelot legend. They ought to make you the senior citizen around here, and not me.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Actually, I need documentation proving that Reagan DIDN'T commit adultery since he was probably fooling around with someone while still married to Jane. You know the rules are different with those Hollywood types.

BTW, adultery is a crime under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. But yes, it is a personal issue and whoever brought up the issue, then he's out of line. I would disagree that military service or lack thereof is NOT a personal issue in this case, but as I said in earlier threads, I hold nothing against Bush whether he served with honor or got over on the system. It's a non-issue with me.

I was just trying to stir the pot.

How about we drop this if the Dems drop the AWOL b.s.?

I couldn't care less about either issue, but if you sling mud you are bound to get your hands dirty. Don't dish if you can't take the heat.

I would love to have an election that was solely about the issues but that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

adultery is a crime under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice

Well, then if Kerry becomes Commander-in-Chief, we'll have to stop talking about this.

How about we drop this if the Dems drop the AWOL b.s.?

If only...

::sigh::

Arnold you make some good points about both parties. I say again, here we go & I want solid proof.

I can't wait to bring my grandson on line, it will be fun!

So can someone please explain why, when Ahnuld the Terminator was accused in public of groping women, there was no consequence political or otherwise (even when his aides peddled lies about her), but some nameless rumor leads to a feeding frenzy over Kerry?

Because he admitted to wrong doing right away. Also, I believe there is an ongoing investigation into the groping charges by the CA Attorney Gen.

Feeding frenzy after Kerry? Ask the Democrats. They play hard and dirty, and they spilled the story.

I'm just laughing. After all the AWOL bullshit, this is a nice change.

Arnold:

A major portion of Limbaugh's EIB radio broadcast slot today was on Kerry and the unknown ketchup doll(s).

Yes. As I recall, Rush said, "There is someone on the grassy knoll picking off Democrat front-runners. And it isn't a Republican."

re: JFK & Marilyn...don't make me older than I already am!

I.T.:

So can someone please explain why, when Ahnuld the Terminator was accused in public of groping women, there was no consequence political or otherwise ...but some nameless rumor leads to a feeding frenzy over Kerry?

Because Schwarzenegger was a nominee for Governor of California not the Commander-in-Chief. Big difference.

Well, the election will be about the issues as opposed to the campaigns after all didn't we elect a draft dodger and an adulterer TWICE? It's the economy plain and simple and Bush could lose on this issue just like daddy did.

And don't give me the argument that American voters are stupid. About 40% of the voters are going to vote for Bush regardless, and 40% are going to vote for Kerry regardless, it's the 20% left over that will decide the election. IMHO, those 20% are going to vote with their pocket books.

I'm sure Kerry would have handled the whole 9/11 crises in the same manner as Bush, the difference being that he would have had full European backing unlike Bush who I still believe was treated unfairly by the assholes in France, Germany, and Russia.

I have little doubt that he or any other Dem would have gone to Afghanistan - we had full backing there.

Iraq is another story and I don't think Kerry would have gone there and he wouldn't have had full U.N. support if he tried either.

France,germany and Russia dicked us not because of Bush, because of Saddam.

Rosemary, I think you are right about Russia, France, and German motives - forgot about that, but I do think we would have gone after the Taliban with as strong a force with any of the serious contenders in the race.

Actually, rosemary, the gubernator cancelled the reveiw of the charges which have now completely disappeared.

As far a the diference between sexual matters, Ara, I'm not sure that it makes that much difference whether governor or president: if sexual issues matter, they matter, if not, then not. I actually think they are irrelevant to the role of a chief executive. But I'd like to see some consistency and I think Dems and Repubs are each as hypocritical as the other on these issues.

I also think that any Dem in the white house would also have hit Afghanistan and the Taliban. They might have stuck around long enough to finish the job, however, because I don't htink they'd have gone to Iraq.

I also think that any Dem in the white house would also have hit Afghanistan and the Taliban. They might have stuck around long enough to finish the job, however, because I don't htink they'd have gone to Iraq.

WE ARE STILL THERE!!!!!!!

Yes, STILL THERE!

Contrary to popular belief we can have troops in two fronts.

Iraq was important with or without WMD's. So, your are right a Dem probably wouldn't have gone there. Although, Bill Clinton said that he would have followed Bush's plan exactly. He would have gone to Iraq.

Random question for the group:

Is the Kerry kerfuffle likely to change your vote from what you were planning to do, say, two days ago, assuming the charges approximate the truth?

My answer is no, and my _guess_ is that's true for most of you, too. I'm not sure what lessons you could draw from that, though.

Well, many bits have been bussed speculating on the "electability" of Sen. Kerry.

So, if the story is anything short of "completely preposterous," are you suggesting that Sen. Kerry (a) gets the nomination and (b) enters the general election undamaged?

Granted, a lot can happen between now and November; starting with, of course, Kerry's push-back (see "preposterous," above).

But I think you are pulling the trigger a mite fast here, mate.

And I'm speaking as a yellow dog Democrat, of course.

That "I don't believe you until you prove it's not true" argument is bullshit. There ARE military records. Everyone who has served in the military has one. Nobody has "marriage records." That's the worst argument I've heard in a while.

Rosemary the Queen of All Evil asked:
"I just realized that Tim said that GWB cheated on his wife, when?"

When he met Condi! -- that is, if he was anything like me. But, then, if he was anything like me, it wouldn't be adultery, since I would have married Condi.
I have to confess, I never did see what Bush sees in Laura. And, quite frankly, I never did see what Clinton saw in Monica. Paula Jones was sexy, though.
When I think about how divergent our tastes are, I often think I have more in common with a man's man like John Kusch than I have with many or most other hetero (gyno) type men. And, while I identify with Lesbians most of all, if there's one who prefers Laura Bush over Condi Rice, then I _still_ have more in common with John Kusch! Funny about me, I know. That's just the way I am.

But none of that is any of my business or anybody else's, and most certainly not the government's! Which brings me to...

I.T.:
"As far a the diference between sexual matters, Ara, I'm not sure that it makes that much difference whether governor or president: if sexual issues matter, they matter, if not, then not. I actually think they are irrelevant to the role of a chief executive. But I'd like to see some consistency and I think Dems and Repubs are each as hypocritical as the other on these issues."

That's absolutely true. I'm consistent. I opposed the smear campaign against Oregon's Senator Robert Packwood (Republican). I opposed Anita Hill's smear campaign against Clarence Thomas. _And_ I opposed the impeachment smear campaign against President Clinton. _And_ I opposed the smear campaign against Arnold Schwartzenegger (who was denounced by the so-called "moral" Right as well as by the Left).

Government has no business in anybody's bedroom, and neither do the media!

Steven,

Government has no business in anybody's bedroom, and neither do the media!

Only in Utopia. They may have no business there but it's too late for that now.

Rust One,

That "I don't believe you until you prove it's not true" argument is bullshit. There ARE military records. Everyone who has served in the military has one. Nobody has "marriage records." That's the worst argument I've heard in a while.

Military records exist, but they do get lost as many in the military have said, repeatedly.

Marriage records? I have proof that I'm married. If someone accused me of adultery, I could provide records and character witnesses to attest that it is false.

The point John is making is that the burden of proof is on Kerry. The accusers don't have to provide proof of the accusations because they didn't for Bush. You see Democrats have to live by the standards that they demand from others.

Goose and gander, and all that.

Sorry. But the lefties started it. I have no sympathy.

Of course, if they charge Kerry with a crime I demand they prove it. That is certainly better than y'all are doing for Bush.

Mommy! Mommy! Billy hit me first!

That's pretty funny, Tim, considering that you're the one who tried to use "they all do it" as a nullification. Heh.

I'm still trying to figure just when Reagan and either Bush committed adultry? The Eisenhower claims are bullshit, by the way.

Can't wait for Super Tuesday. I may actually have a meaningful choice for the first time since my first election in 1980. If this Kerry story wasn't just BS "drudged" up and "rushed" to the net, but actually has legs, then maybe I'll actually be able to vote in a primary that isn't pre-ordained. Will it change my vote. Nope! Wasn't going to vote for Kerry anyway, at least in the primary. I've thought that electability thing was overrated ever since my old rabid GOP-luvin' roommate told me in 1998 to "watch out for that Bush Junior guy, he could win this thing." As far as I'm concerned GW did to the country what Clinton did to Monika's dress, and expects us to pay for the dry cleaning. Just because a guy can win doesn't mean he should.

My niece is excited because this will be her first election and I made sure she got registered in time. She said yesterday she liked Kerry ... "wasn't he, like, something in the war?" I had fun telling her that her guy was in trouble, kind of like when I asked her why marijuana was like her beloved Michigan Wolverines -- They both get smoked in Bowls.

Actually the more the Rove dirt diggers throw at Kerry the more I liked him. Not to sound gay or anything (not that there's anything wrong with that), but he looks and sounds great. That is if I could figure out from all the noise and spin where he actually stands on the actual issues. Gotta love a guy with a booming voice who looks like Andrew Jackson. He's on the Twenty!! NEW SLOGAN: KERRY, MONEY IN THE BANK.

I kinda like the Edwards kid (can't believe he's such a nice guy, and no way does he looks 50. I must be getting old.) Wes Clark has had my respect for years, by far the most intelligent of the field, but couldn't run an election for deputy fire marshall if he owned the only ladder wagon in town. I'll admit flirting with Doctor Dean for a minute, universal health care is my personal pipe dream. He still is second in delegate count, not dead yet.

Kucinich scares me, much like Ralph Nader. When I read their positions they make so much sense to me. When I see them saying the same things, I start to giggle. They scare me because they remind me that no matter how hard I try to be objective, I'm a flaming liberal. I met Kucinich about 20 years ago in college, and I lived in Cleveland after that. They call him "Dennis the Menace" for a reason, trust me. He's a dreamer like me, but he hasn't woken up and talks in his sleep.

Dean,

Pictures please on what an eel looking intern would be, exactly. I need further entertainment. :0)

Oops, no disrespect intended for Rev. Sharpton. I didn't mean to forget him, but I figured he'd be forgotten by Super Tuesday. I'm sure that if he was messing with an intern she'd be a hard body! :-)

Casey, how was the cruise? It looks like you are still floating down de Nile. C'mon, keep figuring, I'm sure you can do it. Remember, sound out the hard words.

Kerry's on Imus in the Morning, and he just now totally denied that there was anything to the rumor. Sounded like he really wasn't worried.

The point John is making is that the burden of proof is on Kerry. The accusers don't have to provide proof of the accusations because they didn't for Bush.

Bush or his spokespeople have said things that are verifiabley untrue about his service. He won't release his discharge papers from ARF although a FOIA response letter says they exist. Bill Burkett went on Hardball to discuss witnessing Bushes papers being 'cleaned'. Memphian Mintz and Paul Bishop were told to expect Bush and look out for him but he never showed:

Recalls Memphian Mintz, now 63: “I remember that I heard someone was coming to drill with us from Texas. And it was implied that it was somebody with political influence. I was a young bachelor then. I was looking for somebody to prowl around with.” But, says Mintz, that “somebody” -- better known to the world now as the president of the United States -- never showed up at Dannelly in 1972. Nor in 1973, nor at any time that Mintz, a FedEx pilot now and an Eastern Airlines pilot then, when he was a reserve first lieutenant at Dannelly, can remember.

There's more to this story than wild allegation, Rosemary, even if some of the proponents of the AWOL story haven't been 100% scrupulous at all times.

Max M,

Two things:

First, going AWOL is a crime in the military.

Second, according to many, many people you can't go AWOL from TANG or the Reserves.

So using inflammatory language such as AWOL, which is a crime, is irresponsible, dirty and negligent.

I've said it many times, I'll say it again. Bush should not have released any of his records because it will NEVER BE ENOUGH. Every question that gets debunked doesn't matter because they just change the question and raise the bar.

If Bush released a home movie of himself doing drills in Alabama - they'd just scream forgery. It will never be enough.

I don't care for that kind of politics. I hated it when the Vince Foster murder rumors and irresponsible criminal accusations were being flung at Bill and Hillary. I hate this too.

Dirty politics is one thing, accusing someone of a crime without proof is another. It's disgusting.

I'm staying on the fence on this one. Military procedure makes my head hurt. Moore and McAuliffe were wrong to make the accusation but Bush should open all his records. Questioning the past actions and statements of politicians is nothing new.

Having said that, I said to myself I wouldn't get involved in this debate... so if I may slide on this one for the moment.... (i know i know i did comment but...)

Max,

The Boston Globe, hardly a rightwing paper, is debunking Burkett. It appears that Burkett is lying...
Bill Hobbs points us to The Boston Globe is reporting that one of the alleged key "witnesses" to an alleged "purging" of George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard records has now denied it happened. This is a key development in the exposing of the "Bush was AWOL" charge as a lie - the "witness" undercuts a story told by one Dan Burkett, a retired Lt. Colonel in the Texas Air National Guard whose allegations are heavily hyped by such Bush-hating bloggers as Kevin Drum and South Knox Bubba. If the Globe story is accurate, it is Burkett who is lying.

Tim: as usual all smoke and no fire. Not a single fact, just more bullshit.

FOAD.

I'm outa here.