Dean,

For a more complete picture, though, you also have to consider the pimp/madam as well as the whore and the john. I think the exploitative factor which has been much discussed often concerns the pimp/madam's relationship with the whore, where the john is the real third-party.

-----

Steven den Beste had a post I read a while ago that defended strip clubs as preserving an essential part of the male/female dynamic. I'm not sure I agree with some of his conclusions, but it was one of the most thought-provoking pieces I've read in quite some time.

http://denbeste.nu/essays/femaleperson.shtml

It's very beautiful site. I like it. All of the best

I think you have some very valid points, and I agree that prostitution is saddening. But I just love playing devil's advocate.

What about car mechanics? Since people are in need when their car requires service, are car mechanics predators?. Feeding upon their customer's insecurity, and need?

What determines a useful service? You have no need for a prostitutes service, and I have no need for a car mechanics service.

BTW I recognize a substantial difference in that prostitutes are demeaned by society, but I do not consider this a 'necessary' condition of prostitution. Lawyers are demeaned, too.

There are plenty of predator mechanics out there.

I've been screwed over by a couple and the hookers could learn a thing or two from "the mechanic". Anytime my car acts up, I get the urge to just bend over...

I like how you pointed out the issues with both parties instead of condemning one and ignoring the other. Both parties are both exploiter and exploitee. Very sad for all participants.

I'd be surprised if all "johns" motives were loneliness or insecurity. Rather, couldn't it be supposed that the motivation is in large part about control? People with control issues are generally insecure, so perhaps thats a redundant question. I certainly agree that the dynamic of pimp-prostitute-john is not good for the well-being of anyone involved.

However, I think the real victim is the trusting spouse that ends up dieing or scarred from venereal disease.

I can't believe that a right-winger and strong proponent of morals like myself is arguing the position I'm arguing...

How much of the problem with prostitutes is simply a stigma attached by society? Heroin junkies buy their product in back alleys, while rich people get their prescriptions for Valium filled at finer drugstores.

You have managed to get a song stuck in my head

And he's looking out for Rosie and she's looking mighty fine
And he's walking the streets for Nancy and he'll find her everytime
When the street lights flicker, bringing on the night
They'll be slipping into darkness, slipping out of sight
All through the midnight watch 'em come and watch 'em go
With only one thing in common, they got the fire down below

For the children, that be from 'Fire Down Below', Bob Seger

I oppose prostitution.

I also oppose the laws against it because government has no business in anybody's bedroom. The sole legitimate function of government is to protect life, liberty, and property, _not_ to legislate or enforce anybody's religion, yours or mine.

It is very true that prostitutes are far more _honest_ than most of those who condemn them -- including most politicians and also anyone who marries for money.

That said: I oppose prostitution for one reason: _not_ because sex is sinful or vile or degrading, but precisely because sex is good and high and sacred. Prostitution reduces sex to an exhange of money rather than of desire. Precisely because sex is holy it should take place in a relationship of mutual desire, mutual passion, mutual worship, mutual commitment, a vow of fidelity, i.e., a marriage, even if (as in the case of homosexuals at present) not recognized as such by church or state. That is my view of it. That is where I stand.

A whore is a predator. She feeds upon her john's loneliness, insecurity, and need. Meanwhile, by paying her, he trivializes her humanity.

...but how this is fundamentally different from a Funeral Director I can't say.

You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.

but how this is fundamentally different from a Funeral Director I can't say.

I have known some people in the funeral business, and while they do sometimes develop an odd sense of humor, they treat the customers kindly, and with respect. They show great sympathy (empathy?)towards the feelings of their customers.

I've never known any prostitutes, and I suppose that they could behave the same way. I suspect, however, that the human side tends to get masked by the 'mechanics' (for lack of a better term).

Is this maybe a major problem?

Prostitution was a very different thing in Lazarus Long's day. Just for the record.

And thanks for remembering me. :)

I believe prostitution should be legal, regulated, and kept out of sight.

What Mike said. Except that I agree the laws don't get enforced, the regulations do nothing for the workers in the business and out-of-sight is evaporating faster than you can say 'why are there ten XXX-material stores next door to my house (because they were out of sight, there, years ago when the city nearby was much smaller).

So really, what Dean said. I agree that misery and regret are the likely dividends regardless of the initial investment.

People should be educated to understand this (Dean's theory of prostitution) at a much earlier age than they are now.

A john and a prostitute negotiate a price for the services up front. The lady, yes lady, is providing her services because she wants to. The man, yes man, is sick of the underhanded shananigans he faces with many women.

A man walks into a Singles club looking for one thing, a sexual partner for the night. He buys women drinks, dances with them, maybe hooks up with one of them, maybe goes home alone $100 lighter. Maybe he does find a sexual partner for the evening, after hours of trying, many drinks, maybe some food, they head out to his place, and yet she still may not be a sexual partner for the night. He is not looking for a long term relationship, just some fun, and some sex. A quality prostitute, is a straight forward negotiation for services and fun without all the games that both men and women play.

Prostitution has been around for as long as the written word. It is the religious that deem it to be bad for those involved, and the names used to label those involved are such as to be degrading and non human.

There is more misery and regret caused by divorce, and religious beliefs than there is caused by prostitution. Every relationship is a negotiated deal at all levels. Is it money, food and shelter, or time spent with the person, used as payment for services rendered, we are all at times a prostitute.

As an ex prostitute...i can tell you, Not all of us end up in misery and regret.. nor do we all prey upon you inocent men. We provide a service that many feel it is easier to to purchase.

I don't know, I'm not all that bothered by it. I've had a couple of friends who were in "the life", as they called it. You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't!) at how many men (all married) just wanted to talk. And lie in bed holding these girls, not screwing them until they screamed.

It is a sad thing - definitely - the picture of loneliness this brings up. Tragic. The yearning for some kind of human connection, and the touch of another human being - even if you have to pay her to do so.

I've had guy friends who have visited prostitutes, as well, and they always feel like crap afterwards. Terrible.

So it's definitely a complex issue.

I'm for leagalising prostitution for one reason above all others.

Why is it legal to give it away for free to anyone you feel like giving it to, but illegal if you charge for it?

Doesn't follow.

Is there anything else that legal to give away but illegal to sell?

I'm sure there is, but I'm not thinking as well as I might today..

I'm not saying there isn't some sadness involved in the relationships between Johns and prostitutes, but all this talk about "preying on loneliness" and John's wishing for "control" probably ignores a large swath of people who are perfectly fine using these services. What about average men, who have money, and also have a strong desire to have sex, but don't have the ability/looks/outlets/opportunities to easily find partners?

Are they supposed to fall by the wayside in evolution's dustbin and just not get laid very much, like lions in a pack who don't get to mate because the Alpha male hoards all of the women?

Are they supposed to buy a tub of vaseline and spend inordinate amounts of time on the internet?

Money is an equalizer. It may be anti-romantic, but it is one factor in our modern world that defines attractiveness. It equals power, and science has already determined that that is a greater aphrodisiac than looks to females of the human species. How is boiling things down to that one factor any more ignoble than a guy going out to a singles bar and mating with a women who is merely stunned by his good looks?

I've never used a hooker (No, I swear), but I can certainly understand the mentality of rich or successful men who exercise the use of their money in a more direct and sensible manner, rather than picking up the trophy wives - which are just more complex prostitutes. Or taking risks with co-workers. Or investing huges sums of money and time in the dating market when all they really feel like is sex.

Just a perspective.

Organs for medical transplants.

Patti: Just note that I don't condemn you at all. Far from it. Nor do I view you with any level of contempt.

I am glad for you that you found another life, though.

Red: This song always said it for me:

When I left my home and my family, I was no more than a boy in the company of strangers,
In the quiet of the railway station, running scared
Laying low seeking out the poorer quarters,
Where the ragged people go
Looking for the places only they would know

Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on seventh avenue
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there

In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of every glove that laid him down or cut him til he cried out
In his anger and shame,
"I am leaving, I am leaving,
But the fighter still remains..."

He says, "I took some comfort there".

I guess I don't see anything wrong with that. The world is a cruel place. Sometimes, yes, it is cruel to the women who choose such a life - but it's cruel to all of us. If men get some comfort in the arms of prostitutes - then I don't see anything wrong with it.

I'm in total agreement with Bill's comment up there.

TMI comin' at ya:

There have been long stretches in my life when I have ... shall we say ... not been 'getting any'.

There were times when it made me so nuts, and I felt so cut off from myself, that I would go to a spa, and get a massage - from a MALE masseuse - I would request a male masseuse, I needed the touch of a male.

And then I paid him. It wasn't an erotic massage or anything like that, just your basic massage.

I USED him so that I could have a man's hands on my back.

To me, it was a better choice than going to pick somebody up in a bar, randomly.

But I kind of got my rocks off, and he got paid.

There are times when you just need to be touched. It makes you feel human. Alive. (Well, let me not assume: There are times when I just need to be touched. It makes me feel human. Alive.)

Sorry if that sounds sappy. But for me it is true.

Maybe some men who go to prostitutes have the same yearning - to be touched, because then they can actually feel that you are a human being.

Told ya. TMI.

Oops - meant to finish that off with "because then they can actually feel that THEY are human beings."

I dunno...this sounds like a lot of projection to me.

It's definitely true that most prostitutes are 'forced' into it, and by and large I agree that they frequently live very sad/risky lives (STDs, abortions, rape, drug addiction). But isn't that a result of the fact that they are degraded in our culture? If being a hooker was something to be proud of (think geisha, or ancient greek 'harlot'), might things not be quite different? Even here there are quite a few women who choose to be hookers because they enjoy it (More true in places where it is legalized and appreciated like Nevada and the Netherlands).

I'd also take issue with the idea that hookers are 'predators'. It seems to me the vast majority of johns are the ones who do the seeking, and not the other way around. (And it's particularly unfair to leave out the pimps/madames from this part of the equation, as they are the ones most responsible for "recruiting".)

And "It is not, and never will be, a simple matter of a biological rubbing together of moving parts in exchange for pay." I think for many men this is exactly what it is. He gets off and goes home...no dating no committment no responsiblity. If he was just lonely, he'd buy a date and not a blowjob! But clearly I could be projecting here as well ;)

Lastly, just one snarky comment "If you hire a prostitute, you are paying for something you wish you didn't have to pay for at all." Actually, whenever I hire someone, I'd prefer they give the service for free!

Well, if you disparage professions that feed on insecurity, you're attacking much of mainstream America. For goodness sake, most (okay, a lot of) advertising on TV is an attempt to *induce* an insecurity, which can then be assuaged by purchasing the proper cosmetics, clothing, big automobile, alarm system, drug, etc.

I remember reading an economist who said that the American economic miracle would collapse in about 2 minutes if the population was happy, secure and well-adjusted :-). Except he was serious.

Anyway, I wouldn't single out prostitutes for making money on insecurity and unhappiness. They've got *lots* of company. It also sure beats petty crime for a living.

Heinlein went quite a bit further on the potentially pleasant side of this question--in the same book, "Time Enough For Love"-- through his several descriptions of Long's encounters with a certain school teacher (don't have her name) and the character Tamara Sperling. More of a healer for what can ail a man.

He also had some pungent observations on Western notions of sexuality, the distortions caused by what he termed the legalized monopoly (and potential abuses of "power") inherent in Western marriage. Provocative reading.

The first thing to remember is that there has never been, and never will be, a 13 year old girl who's thinking "I want to grow up and be a whore". There never has been and never will be an entirely voluntary prostitute - force is inherent in the relationship between a women selling her sex and the purveyor and/or purchaser of this sex.

That a very small percentage of women so situated can manage to get out of it all right (perhaps even get out of quite well, with a large sum of money for ten years of effort) is neither here nor there; its immaterial because it is so very, very rare.

The very large majority of women who are prostitutes would up in the business due to horrid circumstances, and a very, very barbaric initiation into the practice. Pimps are not nice guys - they don't go after strong-willed, 25 year old women who clearly understand the nuances of their actions...their prey is the teenager who is bereft; a person who is legally not capable of making such a decision - very often, the deal is sealed by a course of drug-addiction and rape to make the prostitute both degraded enough to not think she's good for anything else and addicted to a substance the pimp can provide. An early death is the usual lot of the prostitue; after a short and miserable life.

The ultimate source of prostitution is men, of course. Men who want different sex, or sex without commitment of any type, or men who cannot have normal sexual relationships with women on an equal basis.

Prostitution will continue forever - there is no way to ensure that there wont be desperate little girls, men looking for sex, and predators looking to profit off the exchange. My view is that the actual prostitute should receive a small fine, the man who uses the prostitute should get a large fine, and the pimp - who traffics in human beings - should get death.

Ara, a slight correction:

You can lead a horticulture, but you can't lead an animal husbandry.

My view is that the actual prostitute should receive a small fine, the man who uses the prostitute should get a large fine, and the pimp - who traffics in human beings - should get death.

Well that's a nice sweeping statement, isn't it. I hate to break it to you, but from just from what i've read about the porn industry, there is no shortage of women who SEEK OUT the opportunity to be photographed naked, filmed, dance in strip clubs and yes, have sex with men for the right price.

It's not all a nice neat scenario of victimization of lost little girls by nefarious pimps with horns and tails (though there is much of that, I'm sure). It's economics and human nature.

Banning sex for money is enough of an insult to human freedom in and of itself - capital punishment for those who are involved makes me shudder. remember - there is a difference between the slave trade or coercion and people who willingly make this choice.

Just wanted to agree with your basic point. In my opinion a relationship between a prositute and "jon" is inherently disfunctional and harmful to both parties. Since such a relationship is harmful to the individuals who take part in it it should be discouraged. Hence laws are in place to deter people who would stray into such relationships.

Not TMI at all. Thanks Red.

Dean’s view leaves out the huge market of men who are good looking, powerful and could easily get sexual companionship but have neither the time nor to they want to spend it, looking for sex. They also purchase something from the prostitute that is very valuable, a certain level of professional discretion. Look at how much grief Clinton could have avoided had he sought out a hooker rather then a pudgy 20 year old [grin].

Mark Noonan sums up my opinion pretty well. This is something I've often thought about, particularly as a lib reading the words of COYOTE, etc. We'll never end prostitution because it is a natural extension of the human condition, the psychological and physiological differences between the sexes (I am not addressing gay prostitution here), power and weakness, etc. Without question, it fulfills a need and you can't legislate need away. But the thought I always come back to is how many parents want to see their children grow up to be prostitutes? There is no honor or pride in that. Say of lawyers what you will (and I do), law is a profession admired by many. Only in Japan and France (correct me if I'm wrong and I know you will) was/is being a geisha or courtesan an admirable profession aspired to within certain classes, and they differ considerably from what we commonly call "prostitution." I think that in egalitarian societies like ours, everyone is expected to succeed and make it. Prostitution is almost universally viewed as abject failure. (I concur with this view.) Choosing prostitution as a "career" of one's own free will is a concept that is anathema to most of us, even as we acknowledge reality.

I also believe the vast majority of common prostitutes fall into the life from damaged psyches caused by childhood or teen trauma and abuse. This, too, will never end. Does it make it right?

We cannot banish human behavior, but we can deal with it more realistically. As much as I despise prostitution and all it implies and entails, legalizing, regulating and keeping it out of sight works for me.

This is another slam on Heinlein, and it may seem unfair, but I'll try to make it fair.

I once asked a female game shop owner of older years why Heinlein had some of his characters having sex with fifteen year-old girls.

Her response was that he wanted to sleep with teenyboppers at SF conventions.

Supposedly Aldous Huxley (Brave New World) supported his athiest views not because he thought it made sense, but because doing so allowed the personal and sexual liberation programs that he desired to follow in his own life to take effect.

So, RAH, supported prostitution for what reason exactly?

Tadeusz

Hmmm, Tadeuz. I'll believe such rumors when I see more proof of them. Ginny deeply loved her Robert, after all, and I somehow doubt that she would have been so faithful to his memory if he were that abusive of their trust.

As I think this discussion shows, prostitution is a subject that brings up a lot of emotions, and a huge boxcar full of assumptions. I, for one, believe that almost every prostitute openly chooses that life. Because alternatives are always available. I believe that pimps are vile, but that by their free choices, prositutes make pimps possible. I refuse to demean whores by suggesting that they are not free individuals making free choices.

I left home at the age of 15. I might well have become a prostitute. You may laugh if you wish, but it is the truth. I was a very pretty boy, and more than one man with a taste for boys came after me before I turned 16. Is that Too Much Information (TMI)? It's simply the truth, and you may do with it what you will. It's who I was then--and I refused to be a part of it, even when I wasn't sure where my next meal was coming from.

Although, again, I repeat that I do not condemn or despise prostitutes. I merely note that they are human beings who have made a choice I think they probably shouldn't have, one that usually (not always, but usually) ends in misery.

This is a complex subject. One that deserves pondering. It tells us something about men and women--men are more casual and more obsessed with sex, as a rule. Sex can be dangerous and destructive. Simple answers are not to be found.

By the way, I'm with Mike: prostitution should be legal, regulated, and kept out of sight. That's exactly how I see it.

But I also think that we would do well to talk to our sons and daughters on the subject. More than we do.

Bill,

And I hate to break it to you but each and every porn "actress" is a whore as much as the most degraded streetwalker...and the girls who are involved in that are almost invariably brought into it the same way a girl is brought into prostitution...by a course of rape and drugs.

Death is too kind a punishment for anyone who traffics in human beings - to sell a human being is to entirely degrade and dehumanize that person.

Dean,

There is no choice for most prostitutes; a bereft teenager cannot choose to become a prostitute, even if it appears that they did make a choice. We deny to young people certain adult rights because we recognise that they are not capable of making certain decisions without adult guidance. You got lucky and thank God for that - but huge numbers of kids who were in your situation don't get lucky, and the men who prey upon such poor children are among the very lowest scum in humanity.

Re: And I hate to break it to you but each and every porn "actress" is a whore as much as the most degraded streetwalker

Nothing I said disputes this, nor do I disagree with that statement.

Let's make it clear - the definition of "pimp" is not necessarily the same definition of a "slave trader." Women who make a decision to sleep with men for money (via a history of abuse, psychological problems, lack of opportunity), making the distinction from those who are coerced, are still making a "choice."

I may be putting words in your mouth, but something tells me that you would make an argument that murderers should be executed or severely punished, no matter what their psychological, social or medical backgrounds, because murder is a "choice."

Why doesn't this concept of self-determination apply to prostitution and its enablers in any form? Because prostitutes are typically females and sexuality is an extra-special form of human behavior?

Mark Noonan is absolutely correct. (did I just type that?!) I'll take it a step further. The overwhelming majority of prostitutes are literally sex slaves. They have little if any control over their situations, and when asked "why?" they would respond, "it's either this or die." The sheer will to live overrides the depravity that their lives have sunk to.

Would legalizing and regulating it improve working conditions? I don't have that answer.

I see the same thing happening here as in most discussions about drugs and abortion - namely a bunch of (white? rich?) males making judgments about something they've got no first hand experience with. What would be good would be to hear from professional women and men in the trade.

From my own very limited observation, de-criminalizing it and de-pimping it would be beneficial. Pimping seems to me a crime in itself when it involves drug dependency or violence. Passing more laws won't help, but removing them might. Licensing only for disease prevention and control might be good.

I fail to see any real distinction between a prostitute and anyone who trades sex for drinks or marriage or career advancement, and I fail to see why it is anyone else's business.

This is just one more example of how prohibition doesn't work.

OK. I'm going to mitigate my stringency just a little bit somewhat, temper my dogmatic idealism with a dose of merciful realism on this issue.

The legal issue first, get that out of the way. To the extent that coercion is involved, the criminal law should definitely be involved. But, as to the moral/spiritual aspect, as I said, I have no right to inflict my views on what is good or bad, sacred or profane, on anyone else at the point of a gun except where necessary to protect my own life, liberty, property, or loved ones. I think Dean's idea is the best: legal, regulated, out of sight.

"I see the same thing happening here as in most discussions about drugs and abortion - namely a bunch of (white? rich?) males making judgments about something they've got no first hand experience with"

Those Evil Dead White Rich European Males again. Actually, as Dean has pointed out other times in this blog, most of the fiercest opponents (as well as proponents) of abortion are women. We all, male or female, have first hand experience being born, so I think this concerns us all as human beings. I've come to the conclusion that there's no justification for a third-trimester abortion except to save the woman's life.

On to the moral/spiritual aspect of prostitution:
"And "It is not, and never will be, a simple matter of a biological rubbing together of moving parts in exchange for pay." I think for many men this is exactly what it is. He gets off and goes home...no dating no committment no responsiblity."

I said it before and I'll say it again: I'm opposed to that view of sex, and that is the view that underlies prostitution.

I guess this is one of the differences between men and women. Women tend, on the whole, to be more monogamous, men more promiscuous. And men seem to be more inclined to take that "Naturalistic" view of sex as mere mechanics. Call me a girl if you wish, but I believe that sex is spiritual, sacred, and I will believe that to my dying breath.
http://www.upwithbeauty.org/2003/09/03#Girl

But, given that difference between men and women, and therefore between their respective needs (see Red's comment), I concede that prostitution perhaps has to be considered one of those necessary evils like abortion, divorce, or government that we can and must strive to minimize but can never entirely abolish.

Sorry for the pessimism there. I do think that if a more spiritual, more exalted, more "girly" if you will, understanding of sex, of our own selves, prevailed, we wouldn't have so much prostitution, or else, possibly, prostitutes would be priestesses instead, as they were in many ancient cultures. In either case, I still believe that sex should, at least for the most part (if men are indeed inherently or inevitably more promiscuous or polyamorous), be confined to the tight, closed, feminine if you will, circle of monogamous marriage.
That's my view of it, a bit more nuanced than my previous post in this thread, allowing for what seem to be the differences between the sexes. I'm still mulling it over.

Steven,
A lot of your points are well taken and well put, but I still think they represent a cultural position rather than a cosmic truth.
I think that a study of history would prove that sex for hire has a long and varied history and that in many cultures the courtesan is a valued member of society. Ever watch Firefly? Any form of prohibition has negative effects and driving prostitution into the shadows is one of them.
I'm with Heinlein on this one. I also believe in evil, third term abortion may be, but protitution per se isn't. Aloha

There are, despite Dean seeing no distinction, differences between the twenty-dollar whore and the thousand-dollar prostitute. No, I don't think many young girls set their sights on being a professional sex worker. But I also don't know many young boys who dream of cleaning lavatories or sewers.

A whore in Japan is much the same as a whore in the US, perhaps on average even worse off. But a high-class Geisha is relatively respected, and can theoretically remain a virgin. The hetairae (sp?) of Greece could be well-educated and influential: I once read that Aristotle discussed philosophy and other matters with several (he also liked to play horsey, but waddahay) and sometimes gained new ideas. A few blocks away, he could have stood a woman against the wall of an alley for a lot less money.

There are different types, just as there are different types of lawyers and clerics and almost any other occupation.

Do I approve of prostitution? Well, no. But I would much rather have it regulated in some manner than outlawed: it is going to exist until some mutation wipes it out, and the reason I want it regulated is to try to give even the lowest grade some access to protection from pimps, the nastier johns, etc and to [required] health services. As things stand, a hooker who tries to complain to authorities about a pimp is liable to find herself in jail being laughed at by said authorities and the procurer.

Perhaps it is because I live close to Massachusetts. But I am old enough to have had, at least for a few days, a hope that the "Big Dan's Club" case in New Bedford which held that a street-walker could indeed be raped and could indeed seek and even find help from the law might encourage more active aid from the community. Hey, I was young and trusting.

Dean said "But prostitution is a sick, and sickening, relationship. No matter how you look at it, and no matter what veneer that you may put upon it, it cannot do anything but degrade those who take part in it."

Largely I agree, but I sometimes wonder if that is inherent or the outcome of learned behaviour. Ask an Israeli Orthodox rabbi how he feels about pig farming, or a bacon cheeseburger (doubly non-Kosher, not just pork but mixing dairy and meat.) But stand back, he may heave at the mere thought.

Does anyone other than me see the relevance and similarity to the following?

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000272.html

Hunt Johnsen:
"Steven,
A lot of your points are well taken and well put, but I still think they represent a cultural position rather than a cosmic truth."

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. This comes down to the philosophical question of relativism vs. absolutes. While we are all greatly influenced by the cultures we live in (or else I wouldn't be writing this in English), I do believe that there are absolutes, cosmic truths, that transcend culture, and I believe that the sacredness of human sexuality is one of these cosmic truths, these absolute values. I believe that sex is a response of the Divine in one man or woman to the Divine in another man or woman.

Far from that being a cultural norm, I'm afraid mine is very much a minority view in today's culture.

"Any form of prohibition has negative effects and driving prostitution into the shadows is one of them."

As I said, I'm opposed to any form of prohibition. The criminal law may have a role in protecting prostitutes from pimps, but otherwise they and their customers should be left alone. With Dean, I also don't despise prostitutes or their customers. The censure visited upon them by society mainly stems from a hatred for sex rather than the veneration of sex that I advocate. Rather than drive prostitution into the shadows, I would lift sex as such out of the shadows.

"I think that a study of history would prove that sex for hire has a long and varied history and that in many cultures the courtesan is a valued member of society."

I'm very well aware of that, and it will always probably be with us, given what seem to be the different needs of men and women. Certainly, it is better to admire the courtesan, the hetaira, than to despise the whore. But, better still to exalt the wife _as_ the courtesan. Better to marry the courtesan and make love with her continually. What I'm opposing is this crap about "the two kinds of women: the kind you sleep with and the kind you marry". It leads to contempt for both kinds of women, by turns or together. Sex for hire may always be with us, but I would prefer to exalt, in every way possible, sex for love, sex for sex. I want the courtesan herself to feel the same ecstasy as her man. At least, this is an ideal to strive for.

"I'm with Heinlein on this one. I also believe in evil, third term abortion may be, but prostitution per se isn't."

I should have been a bit more nuanced or clearer in my statement on that. I certainly do not wish to equate even what I consider a profanation of sex with third term abortion. They are certainly not "evil" in anything like the same sense.

Anyway... Aloha to you, too.