Sounds pretty good, except for the "family" bit.

Why should the "family" be charged with helping someone who, basically, is worthless?

Because they are family. Family should be the first ones to help you when you are down and out.

Of course, if you are such a loser that your family isn't willing to help you anymore - that is different.

This is such crap. Rich people work hard for their money? I guess all these CEOs who are now on trial for fraud and theft were particularly hard-working. And their kids who would've inherited the money? Just breaking their backs. Poor people don't work hard? Tell it to a full-time Walmart employee who gets less than poverty limit wages for their effort. And how about someone who had a good education and then became disabled and therefore poor? Try getting health insurance for such a person without public assistance; unless you are a very hard-working and therefore very rich person you'd bankrupt yourself.

Perhaps its rude, I've got to admit I'm not up on bloggy-etiquette. But Rosemary said something that fascinated me in her comments on the thing she linked to, so I'm going to jump ship on the other site and respond here. I hope thats OK. Anyway.

"We started with NOTHING" and succeeded. That seems to be the upshot of Rosemary's comment. But some of the very things I respect about Rosemary makes her comment about starting with "nothing" ridiculous. See, Rosemary didn't start with "nothing". For that matter, her parents didn't start with "nothing" either. They were smart. They had a supportive family unit. Essentially, they had everything they needed to succeed.

Some people don't. Some people, through no fault of their own, need some help to even survive (much less get ahead). Sure, I think there are problems with the state of the welfare system. I think its ineffiecient. I think some people take advantage of the system, and some people who should qualify for assistance don't. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT "POOR" PEOPLE DESERVE IT FOR NOT TRYING. Some of them are trying, very hard.

And then I started thinking about another comment from Rosemary (at least she has me thinking :) "Of course, if you are such a loser that your family isn't willing to help you". Sometimes the family isn't any better off. Its not that they won't help you, they can't. In fact, they may be part of the weight dragging you under.

I meant that we started with nothing "financially". My parents had nobody to lean on. Their family was across the ocean and in no position to help.

Allison:

The original essay that inspired Michael's screed was about socialism. There were people suggesting (in comments) that it was okay to take from people who worked and give it without exception to those that don't.

Sometimes the family isn't any better off. Its not that they won't help you, they can't. In fact, they may be part of the weight dragging you under.

Help isn't always money. Sometimes it's free babysitting so you can work, sometimes it's a meal or a roof.

Wrong. (Goodness, how I love saying "wrong" :)

See, your parents had somebody to lean on. They had each other. Not to knock your parents in any way, but neither could have done as good a job without the other one. Its nice to hear that you come by it honestly (just thinking about y'als schedule so someone is home with your boy), I mean the willingness to take the not-easy road if thats a better-road for your child.

I guess all these CEOs who are now on trial for fraud and theft were particularly hard-working.

You can't be suggesting that such criminals are representative of all CEOs.

While not a socialist, I see the need for taxes. In theory, taxes go to support the country which has an impact on my well-being (and my ability to earn more). I see it as an investment in maintaining the lifestyle I enjoy.

To some degree I see social programs the same way. They help maintain the society that I enjoy. I do NOT believe in just giving money to people who won't work. But, there are programs that are designed to help people get into a position where they are productive members of society. This is of benefit to me, as another member of the same society. The more people we have that are productive, the stronger we are as a country both financially and mentally.

No, not all CEOs are criminals; nor all poor people are drug addicts either. It is a historic fact though that a lot of large fortunes were amassed by less than cosher means. I am just tired of that old propaganda piece that all those who are rich deserve to be rich and all those who are poor deserve to be poor.

In any case, Allison expresses my sentiment exactly.

I am a firm believer in the fact that people get what they deserve, and the best way to deserve anything is to work for it and earn it. The fact that many individuals (not most not even most that are getting a so called "handout") simply try to milk the system makes me sick and makes me want to work that much harder for everything so that I will never be one of them. I myself have gotten I everything I have because in one way or another I have earned and sacrificed to do so and believe me it hasnt all been easy or rosy but looking back all those things I saw as hard werent really, the real hard thing was saying no the desire to give in and just put my hand out like I saw so many around me do. I am not talking about the poor underprivlaged individuals that so many hold up in order to continue the welfare state I am talking about white collared middle class 20 somethings who think they deserve it because they worked so hard to get a quality of life they cant afford so why should they give it up.

Let me give you a story (I understand that this "comment" is long so bypass it if you wish)
I once worked at a gas station overnight and at a retail electronics store during the day in my summer before college (I had been kicked out of my house for reasons that will remain unmentioned and just in case anyone wants to things have since been resolved) to try and make what I needed to go to a community college because my scholarships offered by a few schools were only partial and there was no way I was going to afford it. Anyway while working 2 jobs and trying to survive on my own for the first time I come across a coworker at the electronics store who was simply a loafer or so I thought. I found out however that he was the #1 salesperson in the region for months before I started there (I was #1 for a few months prior to this situation coincidentally) I decided to ask him why he doesnt even try. There are so many opprotunities to make money here and you just dont even try I said to him and you know what his response was?

Word for Word
"What are they going to do fire me? At least that way I will get unemployment benifits and make as much as I ever did here and not have to do anything for it."

This struck me as odd. He isnt the black inner city poor that I was told were the supposed degenerates sucking the teet of Auntie Sam. And that is when I decided to never hold myself to that low a standard. I also learned a very valuable lesson from this, not all those that you may think are worthwile are and not all those that you think are worthless are. And that is what makes this so difficult to fix or figure out, but IMO if you end it all there is no problem to fix. Maybe I am as insensitive as the one who wrote the article?

Once again I apologize for the long rant but this topic really aggravates me seeing as how hard most of us (including myself) have worked just to see certain individuals just skim along on my sweat and blood.

I generally align with Alison, though I think something like the Hippocratic Oath should govern social program policy. No form of assistance should ever be given, the net effect of which is to decrease self-reliance.

In my mind, this just about confines it to aid to dependant children.

James Doney:
"And that is when I decided to never hold myself to that low a standard."
Thank you for that, Mr. Doney. That is a truly noble attitude, and I wish more people had it. The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset wrote (in his "The Revolt of the Masses") that the deepest division of the human race is between the elite who pile up difficulties and duties upon themselves vs. the masses who merely drift along.