she lost me when she said:

What's more, Jackson and company have been backpeddling since 2001, obliquely horrified by the way audiences have interpolated the Battle against Sauron to be akin to the battle of the West against terrorism.

Tolkien himself was dismayed that people saw LOTR as an allegory about the Allies vs. the Axis. He stoutly maintained that it was no such thing. He disliked allegory as a literary device and furthermore felt that such an analysis limited the appreciation of his books.

As for the Christian themes, Tolkien was a good friend of CS Lewis. I haven't read anything Tolkien wrote about Christianity so maybe she's on to something.

Tolkien resisted attempts to characterize LOTR as a Christian allegory or as an allegory about any specific event -- even though he was a devout Christian. He was not just good friends with CS Lewis -- best friends might be a better description. CS Lewis was a committed atheist when they met. Tolkien was a Christian. Lewis credits Tolkien with leading him to Christ.

I've read "The Hobbit", the entire "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, as well as "The Silmarillion", at least a dozen times each. I can say with some confidence that there is no explicit reference to Christianity in those books. Of course, however, considering that Tolkien was either a Christian himself or merely worked in a culture that was overwhelmingly Christian, not to mention the fact that he was drawing from a global well of culture and language to craft his story (being a linguist, among other things), it is simply impossible that some Christian influences would not have found their way into the story.

Here are the similarities, as I see them:

1) There is a being who created the earth.

2) There is a being who used to be in cahoots with the beings who worked for the being who created the earth, but he committed the sin of pride and was cast out for his evil actions.

There is no Jesus parable, unless you choose to count Gandalf's battle with the Balrog of Morgoth. Additionally, Tolkien's use of language is powerfully evocative of the prose of the King James Bible.

However, there are plenty of references in the book that would seem outside the Christian mythology.

1. That there are different races who all follow their own religious customs and spiritual outlook.

2. That there is no "chosen people".

3. There is no direct and explicit divine intervention (though there are plenty of subtle cues throughout the book that good and evil are struggling through the inhabitants of Middle Earth)

4. There is much talk of goodness and charity and honor, but no talk of obedience to God or any explicitly religious admonitions whatsoever (there are no "Ten Commandments" or any such theist document to be found)

Perhaps what Jackson is resisting are attempts to characterize LOTR as a *wholly* Christian allegory, when in fact it draws from many sources and in doing so becomes wholly original. As someone who grew up free from any religious influences (I was taught that each might have its philosophical merits but that all were equally unreal), I find it extremely difficult to explain to a person who has lived his entire life believing in the Christian God what it is like to exist outside that frame of mind. Religion is powerful and deep, and difficult to see past. Tolkien's work exists outside any one religion. The concept of Good and Evil are not copyrighted by Christianity. There are many stories that are far older.

There is no Jesus parable

There is no one-for-one matching character like Narnia's Aslan, but Gandalf and Aragorn share many qualities with Jesus Christ.

Tolkien's opinion seemed to vary. He called LOTR a non-allegorical fairy story for adults, but he also called it "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work."

For LOTR essays (pro and con) from a Christian perspective, click here.

Anyone who's seen the movie but not read the book (specifically the Two Towers), Aragorn doesn't actually "die" on the way to Helm's deep and then come back on the eve of the battle. That simply doesn't happen in the book. It's almost as if, despite what Sheryl says, Jackson is trying to put more Christian allegory into it.

...but also Tolkien's more explicitly Christian concepts of absolute truth, good and evil, and the sure hand of Providence.

Those aren't "explicitly Christian concepts". Most any religion shares those similarities.

There's no doubt Christianity played a part because of Tolkien's faith and definitely those values show up in the book; but the book is not an allegory for Christianity in any way shape or form. A Catholic school teacher once tried to teach me that "Middle-earth" meant, in the "Lord of the Rings Religion", the "middle" plane between Heaven and Hell. I guess she didn't actually read the book.

John,

Just to make it clear - since Tolkien was into applicability rather than allegory, we can read the book and come to two entirely different conclusions and neither of us be wrong....but, given all that:

The elves are the chosen people - granted many special dispensations (most notably, immortality), they rejected the commandments and suffered greatly for their disobedience.

There aren't really different religious observances - rather, there are people with greater and lesser understanding of the one religion of Middle Earth.

Gandalf himself alludes to the possibility of divine intervention when he speaks of the finding of the Ring by Bilbo - he calls it a "chance" finding, but he's clearly not buying the coincidence argument...he suggests directly in the book that the Ring was meant to be found, and not by its maker, so that the good of Middle Earth would have a chance at winning.

While there is no reference to any holy writ, there is a general injunction to follow the path of honor and courage with faith rather than with certainty - when Gandalf suggests that the Armies of the West attack Sauron directly its an act of faith - an attempt to pull the attention of the enemy towards them, even though they'd likely be destroyed, just on the faith that somehow Frodo will find a way to the Cracks of Doom to destroy the Ring before Sauron destroys the world...and at the time this decision is made, its entirely unknown as to whether or not Frodo is even alive.

I think the point I was driving at wasnt so much that I wanted more CHRISTIAN interpretation...I agree wholeheartedly with Ara Rubyan et al...but that the Christian themes in LOTR were universal, and if Christians want to take that up as a banner for their faith, then Hollywood people like the actors and directors should not cringe as if we had just squashed their tomatoes. IF anything, Tolkien would be just as delighted (*I* believe) in hearing that Jews drew meaning from the story, or Buddhists, or Muslims. He shunned the term allegory because it would limit what people would gain from what he was trying to say.

Thats all I really wanted to say about it. It used to be that those in Hollywood had no problem getting praise from Christians about the films that were made. Nowadays, its akin to being called the class clown.

This article says pretty much all there is to be said about Tolkien Lewis, their friendship, The Chr. of Narnia, and The Lord of the Rings. I'd also like to note, that there is a Christ-like reference in Aragorn, but also one in Frodo. As the one who bears the "sins of the world." As it were.

There is a really comprehensive review of this issue here. I think it gives a fairer overview of the cast and crew's take on this- obviously, they've all given it a lot of thought. I personally like John Rhys Davies' (Gimli) take on it, and I suspect Sheryl would, too.

Tolkein's works are so full of universal mythical concepts that it possible for anyone to find something that relates to their own veiw of the world.

I caught part of a documentary on Tolkein and the books last night. According to the documentary the books were seen by the Tolkeins as something of gamble and had moderate success in Britain. When the books made their way across the pond the "hippies" took to the book and it was very tied into the drug subculture of the sixties. It has also appealled to the environmental movement, (to the literal tree huggers).

When I first read it and gave a book report in high school I was struck by, to my mind, the struggle between the industrial world and the "natural" world. This is particularly evident in Frodo and Sam's return to Hobbiton.

The most recent "Christian" interpretation just seems to be the need to retake the books.

But I do not how the literalist and fundamentalist Christian can be warm and chummy with Tolkein and accuse Harry Potter books of promoting devil worship.

You can read CS Lewis' "Space Trilogy" and find a reference back to Middle-Earth as coming before the Noahic Flood. And I'm quite certain that Lewis had permission to put this in.

And the Space Trilogy is explicitly Christian.

And Tolkien does appeal to many because of the greatness of his work. The fact that ecos liked him is quite reasonable as well with Christians liking him. And Andrew Sullivan, who is a liberal Republican, likes him.

Tolkien is probably most similar to Adam Smith in their respective fields as totally dominating it.

Why do some Christians react to Potter and (some even to Tolkien)? They see the word "magic" and flip-out. Use of magic = evil.

I think my brethren ought to reconsider what a miracle is...its magic. But we all have lumber poles in our eyes.

Tadeusz

I don't think it's the same Christians who admire Tolkien as execrate Harry Potter. Most Christians are not followers of Jack T. Chick. I once read a book by some Christians who argued that C. S. Lewis was Satanic. That scarcely speaks for what must be the overwhelming majority of Christians.
I must mention that both Lewis and Tolkien also loved Norse mythology, and LOTR certainly reflects that influence.

The Turkish word for "lion" is "aslan."

I'm just saying.

Tolkien's work is no more a Christian epic than Aesop's fables are Christian morality stories. The power of Tolkien's work is bound up in the struggle between unambiguous evil, and the frail goodness of mankind - or in Tolkien's world, elves, hobbits, men, ents, dwarves, etc.

Also, the moral values that are displayed in a positive light are self-sacrifice, courage, perserverence, fidelity, honesty, etc. And the protagonists are not portrayed as perfect heroes, but as common individuals thrust into extraordinary circumstances who sometimes fail, but continue to struggle for good in spite of their weakness and occasional hypocracy.

So, Tolkien gives us two things: 1) An overarching grand battle between good and evil, and 2) a very personal glimpse into the individual struggle for good and evil within one's own heart. Some overcome evil(Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, etc.) Some succumb to evil (Borimir, Saruman, Gollum, Orcs, Evil men who fight for Sauron, etc.) Some realize that they cannot remain neutral in the battle (Ents.) And some are simply swept along by the moral strength of those around them (Theodin, Eowyn, Pippin, Merry)

Does this sound like a Christian theme. Well, it certainly could to Christians. But Tolkien specifically denied that it was a Christian epic. If one were to lay claim to Tolkien's work as essentially Christian, then one would also have to condemn Tolkien as a heretic because there are many cases of "straying" from Biblical truth.

But that is not necessary. Why should Tolkien's work have to be "Christian." Certainly, one can see his own Christian beliefs about good, evil, morality, etc. reflected in the work. But it is better to simply accept it for what it is. The morality tale, and the characters' struggle with living up to their own beliefs just add depth and weight to the fantasy. Altogether it is very enjoyable because of its Christian influences - even if the tale itself is not specifically Christian.

Bottom line is take Tolkien at his word. He disavowed any allegorical intent. If anyone can use any qualities of the story to help instruct their children or themselves, great. But that does not make it "Christian." (Just because Christians find it useful to drive cars doesn't make cars a "Holy" invention. Its time for the lady to grow up.)

One more thought. Despite the overuse of bad language in the first Matrix movie, I think the power of the story was the struggle between unambiguos evil (Robots) and the awakening of Neo to good. Certainly, there was a Messianic quality to Neo being the one.

The reason the second two Matrix movies flopped, in my opinion, is that they lost sight of this theme. The last movie even culminated with Neo negotiating a truce with the Robots. Maybe this satisfied the moral relativists out there, but most people are horrified by the concept of vluntarily making peace with evil. Evil must be overcome. Evil must be destroyed. The second two Matrix movies failed to do this, and failed at the box office as a result. The power of the first Matrix movie was always its story, not the mind bending special effects.

And this is why LOTR Return of the King is getting such rave reviews. Good wins, evil is defeated. It is a time proven formula for good stories. It touches something deep inside the heart of mankind. It is instinctual. LOTR has it. And the Matrix movies lost it.

The machines weren't "unambigous evil" in the first Matrix. In the "desert of the real" scene, Morpheus tells Neo that no one knows who started the war. The implication is that it was us.

"he [Gandalf] suggests directly in the book that the Ring was meant to be found, and not by its maker, so that the good of Middle Earth would have a chance at winning."

Could you tell me where? I recall Gandalf suggesting that the one ring, which contains much of the spirit of Sauron, in some manner caused itself to be found in order to be returned to its maker.

My opinion is that LotR was intended as a heroic myth, predominantly a story of good and evil (and also the response of people under pressure, along with many other things). Many Christians either cannot or will not understand the concept of good or evil without Christianity, so they automatically assign Christianity to it.

Lord, Angilion, you are such a goober!

"So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!

Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought." (The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter II, page 65)

And your opinion is, frankly, hot air. It doesn't matter what you think; if you took the time to read any one of the literally dozens of works written by people who took the time to ask him, it is painfully obvious that Tolkien -a devout Christian- used the bones and sinews of Christian theology in his work.

It just amazes me that certain types of people just can't accept that a popular work is Christian in origin. They will go to any lengths rationalizing away that fact. Angilion, for example, with his little pop-psychology on the limitations of Christians... :)

Which reminds me: Scott, yes, LOTR is, strictly speaking not a "Christian epic." Certainly not in the sense that the Christian religion is expressed within its covers, with references to Jesus and Moses, et. al. You don't need Tolkien to tell you that.

But it is deeply Christian in its themes, ethics, and morality, even if Scott Harris and Co. find that unpalatable. If you have trouble with my statement, try reading one of the above-mentioned dozens of works (again, many of them quoting Tolkien) mentioned above.

Seriously, it's really funny that people find that idea so objectionable, to the point where they say things like "the most recent "Christian" interpretation just seems to be the need to retake the books."

Come to think of it, it's funny that people can make remarks like that with a straight face, while ignoring the past 50 years of literary research on Tolkien's work.

Oh, btw Scott: yes, Tolkien said the book wasn't an allegory: that doesn't mean it wasn't Christian in theme and method. That just means you can't take the book and say "hey, this is about World War Two!" or some such.

I repeat: go read some of the past 50 years of literary research and interviews with Tolkien.

Or admit that you are bigots when it comes to the Christian Church...

Some people seem to assume that just because the heroes are not plastic saints that that means a story is not Christian. They ought to read a bit of the midadventures of King David, sometime.

So it is with the Matrix. Maybe we did start the war, but the machines are still pretty unambiguously evil. Just because the Black Hats are not 100% nasty does not mean they are not Black Hats.

I've read that Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for England similar to the Nordic myths (in power and spread, I think). And he wanted something superior to Shakespeare and the tales of King Arthur.

The book, Tolkien's Ring, claimed you could compare three mythic heroes, Sigfried (pagan and amoral "Power is good!! More power is better!"), Arthur (Christian and flawed--deeply), and Aragorn (pagan, but essentially Christian in thought and attitude, and he does not fall prey to his weaknesses.)

I'd be interested if someone would point out where Tolkien diverged from Christian morality.

Keep in mind that people like Lewis (and probably Tolkien) had some rather unusual insights into Christianity. And it would not surprise me if the picture they painted of Christianity had some unusual bits compared to a typical preacher, just like a grandmaster painter might do things a bit differently than a recent art school graduate.

Casey,

You beat me to it:

Angilion,

So there!

Casey,

Somewhere in my memory is a remembered thing: I can't recall if it applied to Lewis or to Tolkien, but it was along the lines that he (or they) felt that Catholicism was not something to believe in so much as it was an indisuputable fact of life to be dealt with - ie, you either wisely accept it or foolishly attempt to work a life around it. This, of course, might tick off a lot of people (un-necessarily, 'cause if you don't believe it, it shouldn't bother ya), but thats the way Tolkien (and I) view the world.

Mark, what's really screwy is that I'm agnostic! I just know how to read, that's all...

Casey,

And I'm a believer who is having a bit of a crisis of faith - my mother passed away last week so my mind is filled with dark thoughts of death and what it all means; you know, all that believing in an eternal life to come and how hard that is to square with an actual death....don't mind me, I've been like this for a week now.

Mom, were she here, would just smack me upside the head and remind me that she didn't raise wimps. :o)

I think one of the beauties of Christianity as a religion is its applicability to just about anything. The unfortunate flip-side to that is Christianity can be read into just about anything, whether its mark is truly there or not. Hence, some Christians (and only some) cannot see a context in which their faith is not of greatest and foremost significance. I can. IF LOTR used the bones and sinews of Christianity, it must be remembered -- from a theological standpoint and from a standpoint of linguistics and comparative literature -- that Christianity's bones and sinews are themselves comprised of older stuff.

Casey:

Thanks for injecting into this thread a blast of sanity. :)

Mark:

My sympathies— I'll be keeping you and your family in my prayers.

John,

Excellent argument in favor of Papal supremacy....

Paul,

Thanks much...its been a rough week.

In fact, I am a full fledged member of the right-wing Bible thumping Evangelical Christian movement. But I don't see the need to ascribe the Christian label to Tolkien's work. I can enjoy it without claiming it.

Mark: You have my sympathies also. Keep your faith.

John, that's an excellent point! Thanks for bringing it up.

Which reminds me that Tolkien relied quite a bit on Germanic/Scandinavian myths in his work; much of which is pagan. :)

And for those might not know by now: JRRT mad extensive useof Finnish as the basis for Elvish. Cool, eh?

Scott: ok, I see your point. I thought you were saying -in effect- that there was no way that LOTR was deeply rooted in Christianity. I don't see that as "claiming" it, just recognizing good works (heh) when I encounter them... :)

Mark: don't worry, amigo, she's waiting for you. I'm sure you'll get that thick ear as soon as she's stopped hugging you...

Have you ever heard of a pair of sisters known as The Kinleys? They have a lovely song called Somebody's Out There Watching. It might help you right now. ;) Do you have a broadband connection?

Tolkein was a devote Catholic. His faith influenced him in some interesting ways...

The failings of the villains (Lust for power, Conceit, Pride, Intemperance, Ignorance) mirror many of the Mortal Sins, and notice how evil in his world is one of flawed characters, many of whom were good but fell. Dont need a microscope to see parallels there.

The Good people are often described in terms that would suit most conceptions of angels - bathed in light, immune to the pains and poxes of the mortal world, and at all times cognizant of a higher power influencing events. (Recall Gandalf to Bilbo - You dont think all your escapes were arranged by mere luck, for your sole benefit?)

At all times in the LOTR choices and temptations play a key role, as they do in most religions.
The heroes resist the temptations of the ring, literally and figuratively. While Aragorn is far more ambitious in the books than the films, his ambition is tempered with a devout sense of duty to make amends for his ancestors' failings.

That's how I see things.
-John Hamilton

Hi...just found and greatly enjoyed reading thru your stuff yesterday! You people sound quite interesting...mind if I join in? (By the way...I will be away from email till Jan 5, so won't get any responses till then...not being rude, just gone!)
I have never done this sort of thing before (joined an email discussion as a stranger)...but it is always good to 'expand my horizons'!
One of the things I wanted to mention is a possible answer as to why some Christians might react strongly to the Potter series, but not to the LOTR. Perhaps (at least for me, this is true), the heroes in LOTR are more honorable? For example, when Frodo, Bilbo and even Borimir fall into the 'temptation' of selfish obsession with the Ring, they are all (eventually) remorseful. Tolkien's good guys are by no means perfect, but seem to be more clearly 'good', less selfish, etc. I could be wrong, but what I have seen of Potter's heroes seems much more smudged...seems like disobedience, lying and cheating are either rewarded or admired in those heroes.
And I must say, also, Casey, that I was very encouraged that you have read and enjoyed C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy...there are not a lot of us out there, but it is probably my favorite work of fiction and I am constantly astounded that it is not more well-known and enjoyed.
And tho I do not know you, Mark, I am sad for your loss....my Mom died 3 years ago and I miss her greatly still and expect to continue to do so the rest of this life.
And, Dean...one question...I don't think I have ever heard the term 'liberal conservative' that you used in your interesting bio...I would love for you to elaborate on that, or perhaps you already have in some other part of this website?
Anyway...thanks for letting me add a few thoughts!

I'm an evangelical Christian. There's no doubt in my mind that the LOTR trilogy is not something that God would approve of. There are too many elements in it that God denies. I believe that the reason why this movie is so popular with so-called Christians and others is because of the popular mysticism contained in it, just as New Age is popular now. Mysticism has a powerful effect on people.

Just found this site. It's been interesting reading.

dowingba wrote: A Catholic school teacher once tried to teach me that "Middle-earth" meant, in the "Lord of the Rings Religion", the "middle" plane between Heaven and Hell. I guess she didn't actually read the book.

Maybe she did read the book and a lot of others as well. The following is from the Tolkien Society web-site.

Eálá Earendel engla beorhtast
Ofer middangeard monnum sended

"Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over Middle Earth sent to men." ("Middangeard" was a ancient expression for the everyday world between Heaven above and Hell below.)