I thoroughly enjoy the French one-on-one, but they make incredibly bad political decisions so dependably that I believe I must not be experiencing important facets of their character during my daily interactions with them.

No need to apologise. I dont think you said very much other than the truth about the French people and their Government, that wasnt factual.

You?

Apologize??

Gah! I've seen everything now.

;^)

Hey, I have French ancestors! When I read your original piece, darling, I was completely.... totally....

Amused. ;-)

I think I remember when David Brinkley called Bill Clinton a boor (hmmm, a bore and/or a boar?) and then later apologized. I think it was Walter Cronkite that said he was very disappointed in Brinkley, but mostly because Brinkley shouldn't apologize for being right :)

Hmmm, whats the point? Accept it, France is evil! Sure, there are a FEW good French-persons. The same way there are a FEW horrid Americans. But ...

And I'm still moderately irked that my husband prevented me from installing the yard sign "First Iraq, Then France" :)

whether you consider it right or wrong, it's easy to badmouth the french when they do things like vandalizing war cemeteries with nazi symbols and statements saying "Death to the yankees"

true, it's not the entire populous doing these incredibly tasteless things.. but it's not just their public figures that deserve a reprimand

We should all accept that when we generalize we don't mean to include everyone of whatever group. Nothing's ever 100%, and the back and forth bickering on such matters is tedious.

That said, Fuck the French.

I am of French descent. I do not accept your apology.

I do not accept it, because no apology is called for.

Three hundred years ago when my ancestors left France it was a loathesome pesthole populated by rude, bumptious peasants ruled by an arrogant clique of haughty, posturing, perfumed fops.

That is to say, little has changed: tout la France, c'est merde.

The problem with the French is that somewhere along the way when nobody was looking, they became a Islamic nation.

Dave D., having French ancestors isn't the same as being French. I have Irish, English, German and Polish ancestors, but I'm American.

You all are making Dean look positively gracious toward the French by comparison!

As to you, mj, I have a real French friend. As to your offer, she wants to know if she can see your picture, first.

FYI, when a post says (Rosemary) next to the title, it does not mean that Dean is randomly referencing his favorite spice. It means that his wife, coincidentally named Rosemary, wrote the post, not Dean. The same goes for (Justene), although to my knowledge, Justene is neither a spice nor Dean's wife. :)

Sam,

I never claimed to be brilliant.

...and they love you just as much, and maybe more. Well, you felt so very, very proud of the Polish people and you shared a sweet story with us. How wonderful to go back to Poland and do as your Father told you to do.
Poland has a rich history with a strong friendship to the United States, we loved you for your courage to tell it like it is!

Your apology is predicated on the notion that the French leaders do not accurately represent their countrymen. And there I think you err. As evidence, consider various French poll results.

The French have fully earned their odium.

It's amazing, really, the sophistication with which other nations view the United States. They know we have a rather free economy and a rather free society, and that we're generally well-off, happy people. They also know that our government has more than 200 years of history of doing some pretty bad things diplomatically, militarily, and in regard to human rights. Of course, other governments have done worse; I think it's that we're so big that our governmental misconduct gets more attention. Our government's foibles aren't all that different from the foibles of other democracies -- there's just more volume.

And so people in other nations -- even in the Middle East -- know the difference between the U.S. government and the U.S. people. They generally dislike or resent the former, and they generally like and admire the latter.

In the same way that foreigners can view us favorably while disliking the actions of our government, I think it's worth distinguishing between the French government and the French people. Anything less is pure xenophobia: the basest sort of tribal instinct. It is deplorable and it is also beneath rational discussion. It is the worst in us, and I hope that we get better at fighting that baseness in ourselves. Myself included.

John Kusch,

I don't agree. Broadly speaking, I think the actions of the U.S. government DO reflect the will of the American people--that's the whole point of the democracy thing. I certainly won't argue that our hands are perfectly clean in that regard--for instance, I think our handling of Iraq and Saddam Hussein following Desert Storm was appalling and shameful, although I think the mistake was due to ignorance, not malice--but it's OUR government. Congress, the President, the Supreme Court--they speak for US, and if a serious disconnect develops, we change directions through the ballot box.

If commenters from outside the country see a significant split between our government and our people, then something is being lost in translation. This is one of the crucial aspects of our nation--a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

France is somewhat different, in that France is still run by an untitled aristocracy. The term "political class" has a much more weighty meaning in Paris than it has ever had in Washington. Chirac and de Villepin are much less accountable to the people in real terms than American politicians. Nevertheless, France still remains fundamentally a democracy. For that reason, the people of France bear some responsibility for the actions of the leaders they chose to represent them.

Where does that leave us? Well, the majority of the political class in France are unequivocably our enemies. Fortunately for us, they are also pretty much inconsequential on the world stage. The majority of the French populace seems apathetic, although there are some signs that France may reenter a revolutionary phase sometime in the next few decades, with unknown results. I don't really feel like throwing rocks at the French people, per se, but I think they are sufficiently culpable that I won't take any vacations there, either.

John,

We don't draw double standard criticism because we're big. We get it because we do things differently than other countries. Those who oppose our policies (both inside and outside our country) must exagerate our errors to offset the clearly superior results our system yields.

Joel,

Warn her I have a shower and shave policy.

Why apologise?

The French were dropping nukes in the pacific ocean in 1990s near Australia and New Zealand and they dare to abuse everyone about nuclear and war issues...

Screw the hypocritical bastards!

Curious to know if any of the anti-French posters - and that's approximately all - care to elaborate their arguments so that it makes sense to anyone but another internet yahoo. Sam Barnes and D Smith do you have any idea how alienated poor whites and blacks and hispanics and asians are from the workings of the American political system? Let me answer for you - you do not or you wouldn't have posted that valueless bombast. For what its worth I've worked for years in Social services right here in the good old US of A. Go ahead, convince me that The U.S. government in fact represents any one I know or they know or they know they know. To the rest of you - I encourage you also to stay away from French food, art, film, and literature - though judging by the quality of your syntax (is English really your first language?) I'm not concerned.

Finally - how many of you - 8th generation U.S. citizens (your grampa was Protestant, bravo,) or not, have spent any appreciable time in France? HOw many of you read French papers, in translation or not, How many of you would permit yourself to make similar comments about other countries who have been known to make grievous errors in political Judgement - i.e. Argentina, Chile, Japan, and China? Your pronouncements betray your provincialism and lack of education. A number of you, I'm sure, will bear that standard with pride.

That's utterly uncalled for, Domonique. You have no idea what anyone here's social status is, or how any of us grew up. I've lived on welfare, dear, and known plenty of other people on that end of the social spectrum. You're showing your own prejudices and bigotry if you think you can define people's politics by such things.

Furthermore, I've seen quite a bit of translated French papers, thank you, including a ton of antisemitism, a ton of vicious anti-Americanism, coming out of French newspapers and French publishing houses. I also have French ancestors. So I don't particularly need to be lectured by self-important snobs who think that because they work in social services they're particularly smarter than me, just because I find jibing the French funny.

Take a hike, and take your elitist self-righteousness with you, lady.

(Rose, I'd rescind that apology if I were you. This snobbish femme doesn't deserve it.)

Dean:
A) you don't know my gender.
B) If you point out (clearly) what I need to appologize for - I'll do it. Let me know, for example, where in my post I'm defining any one's politics.
C) French ancestry is no more a guarantee of impartial pronouncements on French politics than government issued card is of an understanding of Native American lore and legend.
D) I think I'm smarter than you because you don't write in English terrribly well - I could be wrong, but experience on the whole has proven me right. On the other hand its been suggested by certain cognitive psychologists that there are many different kinds of intelligenc - maybe you're really good at whiffle ball.
E) You're wife's apology was, if I understand her correctly, was not to me (I don't need or want it) but to herself. I hope she's accepted it.

F) From your tone it sounds as if you're spitting. Wipe your chin.

John: I like to bash the French, but in a tounge-in-cheek way; sort of like how the Brits used to tease us in WW2. One of my favorite cartoons from Bill Mauldin was a British Tommy sitting on a battlefield while Willie & Joe walk by. The Tommy looks around at all the junk visible lying around and says "You blokes leave an awfully messy battlefield." Heh.

I will, however, say that anti-semitism has been on the rise in France the past few years, and it ain't pretty. So yes, I think there are some things we can critize the French people about.

But the whole 'freedom fries' thing was completely silly.

Dominique: L took 5 years of French (4 in high school, 1 in college) and even read Candide in French as part of my college studies. See my above comment. And, I think the policies and actions of Chirac to be reprehensible.

Feel free to disagree. I think that you crossed the line when you started criticizing the language in people's posts. I don't know if you are aware of this, but that is considered rather gauche (how's that for irony? [g]), and beneath the intelligent correspondent.

I find fault with your claims of superior understanding of alienated minorities here in the US. Your personal experiences are anectdotal, and are therefore not statistically valid. A similar claim would be someone who cites their grandfather as evidence that smoking isn't bad for you: "He smoked 2 packs a day until the day he died, and he lived to be a 120 years old! This proves smoking doesn't hurt you." No, it proves that there are outliers on any data trend, which is why anectdotal evidence is not considered valid when someone makes claims about a percieved pattern, or trend.

Another observation about French thoughts these days: one of the best-selling books in France the past few years is one that claims the CIA staged the 9/11 attacks.

A best-seller... 'Nuff said.

Do you realize that a great many Americans have stereotyped a nation of 60 million people? Do all French think alike, vote alike, view America exactly the same as every other French citizen?

Substitute any ethnic adjective for French and what we have here folks is racism and bigotry.

Rosemary, one of the great directors of our time was Polish with a great affinity toward the French. The trilogy Bleu, Blanc, and Rouge are phenomenal as are Jean De Florette, The Hair Dresser's Husband and many other fantastic and moving films. A nation that has produced that much magnificant art, music and film can't be that bad. Plus, they made one hell of a statue for one of our harbors not too too long ago.

Oh, don't forget discovering the AIDS virus while America was busy underfunding the CDC.

Tim the Soldier

"whiffle ball?"

Evil Clown chuckles...

Dominque,

While I somewhat agree with you, I must give you a citation for straying of the path of relevance. While Juliette Binoche is a great actress, she can't bench press for shit.

Tim the Soldier

Dominique,

Been to France (more than ten times).

Nice/Marseilles to Paris (plane, car, train) both directions - many stops.

Read LeMond (mostly in translation)

Screw the French (and those who sympathize with them - to include you)

PS Do you know why soap is so cheap in France?

RDB,

Danielle wants to know if you have a picture. Now she has two choices, as mj has already expressed interest in having an intimate relationship with her.

Tim,

You said "Do you realize that a great many Americans have stereotyped a nation of 60 million people? Do all French think alike, vote alike, view America exactly the same as every other French citizen? "

Two things. First, any day now it will occur to you that anti-Americanism is exactly the same. We've been putting up with it for 300 years. It's more than a little disingenuous to be lectured on finally giving it back, especially in as joking a manner as was done on this thread.

Secondly, we have our reasons for disliking the French. It's understood that we only mean those French to whom these reasons apply. See my 4:04 post. We're not going to rehash a year's worth of debate for an ignorant Johnny-come-lately who can't be bothered to read the history, yet feels perfectly comfortable criticizing us for not enlightening her.

Your whining "it's not everyone" is the most irrelevant non-argument ever made.

So, if I say I hate Texans, eveyone understands that it is only some Texans that I hate? What if "Blacks" or "Jews" is inserted for "French"?

mj,

But mommy he hit me first!

ok, your 4:04 post:

"That said, Fuck the French."

I give you credit for being concise.

Now, are we talking about having consensual sex with an entire nation? Which Americans will be given the opportunity to actually "Fuck the French"?

Assuming all that, do we buy them a drink first? Perhaps dinner and a movie?

Now, while you clearly articulate your feelings, your dynamic post at 4:04 lacks the depth I would expect from someone claiming vast knowledge and complete understanding of modern history.

Of course, when, in what I will forever refer to as "mj's Brilliant Post at 4:04" is read by all readers, we can be sure that greatness is among us.

That being said, I like french fries.

Tim the Soldier...(too much? I'm trying to capture a sense of sarcasm and humor with only a little twist of anger.)

Joel.

Go back and read my 4:04 post. It was already stated IN THIS VERY THREAD. Your pretending otherwise and trying to turn this into a racism parallel must be fun, because it sure isn't accurate. It's nothing more than an unimaginative debating trick to intimidate the weak-minded.

The difference is that "blacks" and "jews" are not a nation of people - its like me saying that I hate all christians and asians (not true)... thats based on their apperance and relgious beleifs. It seems appartenty that we all here are talking about the pollitical opinions of the French.

We are not discriminating against them because of the way they look or the way that they pray. That is a big difference.

PS: texans are cool

mj,

I was always told to look at the bottom line. Your bottom line speaks for itself.

Let me ask you this, do you have the balls to go to France and wear that slogan on a sign in broad daylight?

Tim the Whiny Bitch:

Only you could be so tedious to continually make a non-issue into a bigger non-issue.

Here's what I wrote:

"We should all accept that when we generalize we don't mean to include everyone of whatever group. Nothing's ever 100%, and the back and forth bickering on such matters is tedious."

That seems to address your and Joel's points about generalizations pretty directly hours before you made them.

Yet it seems that meaningless back and forth blather is all you can handle. I'm not surprised. Since you can't come up with any original thoughts you have to fall back the the old racism standby. You better hope someone comes along to save you Tim. You've got a sad life ahead of you.

Joel,

Are you implying I could be afraid of the French? My only fear is that if I were to show up I might die of starvation while accepting the surrender. 60 million is a lot of POW's to sign in. Are you sure I can't take a couple of friends?

Seriously, you guys need to get a grip. Making fun of the French = racism. It's like you were indoctrinated at some point: when someone says A, you respond B, and you just can't break the Pavlovian response.

Must be a product of our education system.

mj, "Fuck the French" is original?

Look MJ, when people talk about a section of society, they generally mean they hate about 99% of them.

I say that I hate hippies, but I don't say ALL of them! (I have 2 friends who are far out)

Tim hasn't said he hates ALL French, he just generalised. Until that "ALL" word is put forward, it is assumed that the person is generalising.

Quit your own bitching

Go to google.com and search "french victories"

its funny how the first page states that the document cannot be found :)

mj,

Let's be honest - that's not all that you said.

"Hey everybody, let's point out Tim's intellectual dishonesty by being intellectually dishonest ourselves and maybe no one will notice."

"Oh Oh, I've got an even more original idea! I'll call Tim a whiny bitch to egg him into posting something so obviously stupid that everyone will think I am much more clever."

"And for the grand finale....drum roll, I'm gonna accuse him of pulling out the race card in hopes that he hasn't seen that hardly original blog tactic."

What's next, correcting my spelling and grammar?

The argument I have with you and Allison is that you (and others like you) are quick to use pseudo-humor to bash the French with your disclaimers that you really can't generalize about a nation of people. That's like saying "I really don't mean to offend you, but, (insert offensive remark)."

What I can't believe is how people profit from exploiting this bashing by selling t-shirts, stickers etc.

BTW, it's whiny BEAAAAATCH!!!

Tim the Soldier

:)

Jared,

I think you have me confused with mj. I forgive you. Actually, I like every French person I have met....they were delicious. (preemptive tasted like chicken....don't even think about it.

Tim the French Loving Soldier

(Dean, you gotta cut me off baby!)

Tim

It's really quite simple. If you can't generalize you can't have a meaningful conversation about anything in politics. The next time you want to trot out your "evil corporations dominate the world" theory I want proof that every single corporation is involved. Otherwise your claim is invalid, right?

Yes, we pseudo-humorously bashed the French. Big deal. Don't you have anything important to worry about? When was the last time your goldfish got laid?

Jared,

I was mocking Tim and Joel when I wrote that making fun of the French = racism. That's what they want us to believe.

I'm not comfortable with the name-calling, gang, but as long as you're all having fun.

By the way: Dominique's a doody-head!!!!

Dean the Spittle-Chinned

Dominique (who is a man),

I think "valueless bombast" was a bit over the top. You think my syntax is poor? That is strange; while my writing has been called dry, most critiques don't target my structure. I assure you, English is my first language, although je parle un peu de Francais aussi.

I deduce from your claim to have worked in social services for "years" to mean that you are above voting age. I have no reason to assume you are a felon, or not a citizen. Do you vote? If you do, you have no reason to claim that the U.S. government does not represent you. If you do not, then it is your own fault.

"Go ahead, convince me that The U.S. government in fact represents any one I know or they know or they know they know."

I would not consider this to be impossible, but based on the tenor of your comments, it may approach the miraculous--and that is not my area of competence. If no American citizen within two degrees of separation from you truly believes that the U.S. government represents them, there is only one word to describe that perspective, and that is "provincial."

Dean! Wipe your chin!!!!!!

You know that grosses me out!

I'm getting in late here, but I despised the French before the Iraq imbroglio, and before the Afghanistan thing, and before 9/11, and before Y2K.

And I wasn't alone in that. French hating is a time honored American sport.

The French have not done anything unusual since 9/11. Yes, they have acted like hateful scumbags at times, but that is just what the French DO.

The French serve a useful purpose. No matter how badly we do something, no matter how bad we look, or how bad we feel, we can always say "At least we're not FRENCH."

Gary, you ignorant slut. You couldn't just sit this one out. Couldn't leave it alone could ya? WINK! I thought this discussion was beneath you. I guess I was wroing (that's very wrong). mj, my evil clown irked your chain. All the same, thanks for the banter. You made my evening.

Tim the Soldier

Hey Tim,

After posting my messages above, i realised my stupidity :)

Thats why i placed the wonderful smiley, shut-up and left... damn i'm an idiot!

Sorry mate... lol :) Take it easy

I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

Sam - your sure do write purty. Google on "alienation from the political process" You think I pull this stuff out of my French Ass? You wish! What I meant to say, and perhaps I'm guilty of being overly concise, is that the poor, and the middle class of this country are not infrequently disenfranchised, or believe themselves to be - by the political machinery by which politicians are selected and elected. The debt of elected officials from the School board on up to special interest is so well accepted a phenomenon that there hardly seems to be any point to arguing about it.

To the rest of you: I take it back you're a bunch of real Molieres - wasn't it La Rochefoucauld who once famously said "fuck you, you taste like chicken"? You gotta say that out loud to savor the nuance. Applause.

I have just re-read Rosemary's retraction and felt the need to comment that it may be the single most gracious and well-considered I've ever read - Rosemary your contrition goes far beyond the redressing of a mere slight. I wrote this in the original column but will again say that your sincerity and your sense of impartiality and balance speak volumes about your character.

I would feel the same were the retraction about statements made about any other group, but in this case I feel obliged to state my recognition clearly. Both ears and the tail.

fyi - dsherter is me - signed in hurriedly.

Thank you.

Also, thanks for the link. It brought back wonderful memories for me.

Dominique (who is a man),

If you have the right to vote and the rights to speech, press, and assembly guaranteed by the First Amendment, then I do not care in the slightest about any feelings of "alienation from the political process" you may have. Your psychological issues are no concern of mine.

After having a think about what I've written, I do feel ashamed. I don't hate the French, I just dislike their government's polices, especially when I feel that they are hypocritical. But no-one is perfect.

So in the footsteps of Rosemary, I apologise to the French, but I do also hope that in the future that their government makes wiser decisions. That way I don't have to come online to make an arse of myself. :)

Sam (who is a shmuck) read a few of the googled sites I suggested then come back and rattle your wooden saber. How can you write so purty and be such an ass? My alienation is not at issue (don't answer if you haven't read the post - chronology you should have down pat by now) but the alienation of the voting public. Writing without contractions is not a substitute for thinking.

Jared, you're the new candidate for the Legion d'honneur. Mouah Mouah on both cheeks.

Dominique sez:
"Jared, you're the new candidate for the Legion d'honneur. Mouah Mouah on both cheeks."

'Man kiss!' Eewww!

Then talking about Sam's ass; aren't you ashamed of yourself!?

Heh.

Dominique:
"Jared, you're the new candidate for the Legion d'honneur. Mouah Mouah on both cheeks."

Thanks, you're pretty cool too.

(unless I've got everything mixed up again and your really being sarcastic to me ;) )

OK - time in the confessional: I am in fact the woman I was earlier accused of being. re: ass - it was mine I was referring to, thank you, albeit in vulgar and colloquial way. I would never cross a boundary of good manners to refer to Sam's ass save for those moments when I might metaphorically wipe the floor with it. Otherwise said: bring it, American pig-dog. Re: the embrace associated with decorations of valor: strictly dry. To Jered, I was being light, but not sarcastic. I do absolutely have respect and awe for anyone who changes their tact mid-stream out of conscience. Small aside - the song "Amazing Grace" was purportedly written by an English slave trader who himself had an access of conscience (faith-based as we say today) and wrote those gorgeous verses in a rush of remorse. You and him Jered. Good company. And thanks for the endorsement. Mr. Barnes, the chapel's always open and the light's always on.

Dominique (who is, evidently, NOT a man),

Feel free to reference my ass as you wish; it is quite safe from your predations. If you actually read and comprehended what I wrote, I did not engage in French-bashing at any point, although I did point out some perfectly valid aspects of the differences between American and French political culture. You certainly have no basis to complain about the rhetoric of others, however, given the crudity of your own bigoted insults. ("American pig-dog"? How unoriginal.)

Thanks Dominique, I was being sincere.

Oh yeah Dean, I just skimmed read a few of the comments - I adimit... Serves me right I think. I did make stuff up. :)

Take it easy guys

** update **
It seems I suck at proof reading too. Change "did" to "didn't" and my comment will seem a bit more meaningful - though the momment has gone.

Yeah I know, I sux.

Sam, or Mr. Barnes if you prefer, we've moved passed the French bashing to your statements re: the disenfranchisement of the American electorate. Had you read my post you would be well on your way to another misguided rant vis - such. Now Go.

American pig dog is the title of an old French folk song. Not original, perhaps, but meant lyrically.

Dominique:

Does an American pig dog bark, or squeal? :)

I'm just asking...

It squeals but it'll claim it barked.