I dunno about the "good Christians" (tho I doubt they are) but the threatening gays are just following standard left-wing policy.

I can't quite, offhand, remember the last time a left-winger threatened to rape me.

I must live a sheltered life.

Pillage and plunder maybe, but rape? No.

;p

I am not a fan of homosexuality. That said, there is one quote from the bible that prevents me from really getting too anxious over it, "How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?"

So, when I reach perfection, I'm going come down really hard on everyone else. In the meantime, I'm trying very hard to crowbar the plank out of my own eye. But it's a pretty big plank, so it may take me a while.

They are called "hot button" issues for a reason. When you deal with them in your blog, "X" percent of your readers are going to react to the message (and messenger) in very personal ways.

You know how many people read your blog - as a percentage what do these represent? I would wager that is way less than 1%.

I do not see you as one who is intentionaly provative in your presentations. I appreciate your efforts and hope that you continue.

Dean, we might all learn at least one lesson here: The distinction between "left" and "right" is an over-generalization that obscures as often as it clarifies.

What's up with conservative Christians who physically threaten people? I remember hearing "turn the other cheek" in most of Jesus Christ's news blurbs. What about "lefties" in minority groups who are able to establish greater levels of respect and equality for themselves, but then become overtly hostile towards others? Did they miss all of the PBS specials on Gandhi and MLK?

The answer is clear, regardless of how we generalize each individual's political convictions. Too many of us, on too many levels, are too ready to use violence to solve our problems.

Hey, gay-bashers are people too.

Just kidding.

Don't let a few extremist nutcases drive you off the web. It's bad enough that they have their own litte asylums to run. Why let them loose to run the whole country?

I may have a blind spot here, but it seems to me that the mainstream Right does not embrace right-wing extremists the way the Left embraces its extremists.

> What the hell is wrong with people?

If you don't ask yourself that question every day, you're not paying attention. There is no shortage of self-righteous, hateful people in the world. Some of them are even smart enough to fly an airplane.

Just goes to show that nobody, in whatever camp they are, re perfect. Everybody has some blind spots. Some more so than others, whereas some pretend not to have any blindspots, and go about lecturing others. My point being, that we ought to think and consider stuff carefully before we act, otherwise, we are all loser hypocrites!!!! Though, like Bill in one of the comments above said, I am surprised to see Democrats and other left-wingers seem to embrace leftist extremists more so than you see conservative Republicans support extremist right-wingers.

Somewhere there is a transcript of the speech that the fictional president of the united states delivered to a radio hack on The West Wing. He starts quoting the bible.. it was fairly brilliant.

Dean:

When I hear things like this, I just want to throw away my computer and go live in a log cabin somewhere with a few crates of books.

I hear you. Where you're at right at this moment, with the Itchy-and-Scratchy crap of idiot Right and idiot Left, is where I found myself about 12 years ago.

Yes, finding some way to pull back from it and disengage on some level can be salutary. But, take it from someone who lives with thousands of books in a house far, far out into the sticks— all the physical remove in the world means nothing unless you can find that level of detachment inside of yourself.

Yes, they're jerks. Right or Left, people of the sort you describe are toxic, poisonous jerks. My experience has been that I've had slender-to-nil success in changing jerks into nonjerks. I've had rather more success in focusing my energy and attention on the great majority of people I've known, who know how to conduct themselves with a good measure of civility and human decency.

That, and don't let the poisonous idiot jerks keep you from finding that level of detachment, that "still small voice" inside of yourself.

" I am surprised to see Democrats and other left-wingers seem to embrace leftist extremists more so than you see conservative Republicans support extremist right-wingers".

I think that perception depends on whether you are left or right yourself. I think those on the left would say the exact opposite. I'm more-or-less in the middle (I'm left on some issues, right on others). I'd say pandering to the extremes is about even on both sides.

Well, as one of those who believes in the sinfulness of homosexuality, I feel the need to respond.

And the only possible response? Both of these incidents are uncalled for.

Specifically regarding the first incident: any "good Christian" participating in such things need to learn a little bit about love, and our purpose as believers. I reject any association with the idea that any sinner needs an "ass-whupping" from any believer.

I'm a Christian, and I think that homosexuality is a sin, and a terrible mistake, but, its a person's choice to make, and unless I am convinced that allowing such a choice will lead this country straight to collapse I'm going to allow that choice. After all, God allows people to choose Heaven or Hell.

Second, the gay-basher committed, IMHO both a sin and a crime. The crime is obvious--threat of assault can lead to what punishment? (jailtime or a fine?) Certainly, it would lead to an unhappy policeman explaining things to the offender at some length.

To get a little technical, at what time is private violence justified? Self defense of yourself, others, or property is my answer. And, of course, Revolution. I doubt that the gay-basher wants to proclaim war against the American government. And justifying revolution is difficult, as it should be, and I don't want to get into that deep of water here.

So, if the violence (or threat thereof which makes little difference) is unjustified, then it is a sin. The gay-basher should go home, maybe talk to his pastor for advice or just think about things, and if convicted of sin, then repent, and send an apology to the one he offended. I can't know his heart, but I have a hard time seeing how this would not be a sin.

Jeff,

I don't like homosexuality, but I don't believe in concepts such as sin, either. If you've read my comments on Dean's World you know my stances on both.

But at the same time, I believe in treating people politely, and I neither threaten nor allow myself to be threatened. If someone wants to practice homosexuality, then that's his or her business even if I think it is a misuse of their bodies. But I sure as hell don't ever want to impose my views on anyone else.

More than a few people send me private emails over stuff I've written on Dean's World. I've never had trouble with anyone on this score, and some of the messages have been interesting enough for me to respond, a few times at length.

Dean, I hope you never have cause to shut down the comments. For me, this part of Dean's World is as much a part of my life as my daily 4-5 miles at the fitness center, or my almond croissants and coffee with my wife at the best little bakery in Madison. Try instead to shut down the specific people who abuse your guests.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Arnold:

I agree with you most emphatically, I hope Dean never shuts down the comments on Dean's World.

I myself haven't been posting here as much recently for a combination of reasons— chief among them the fact that, for me, the first month or two of the fall season is one of the busiest times of the year. But I still visit here often, read most of Dean's pieces, and many of the comments. And it would be a real subtraction from my daily routine if I could no longer sit down at my computer with a cup of coffee after breakfast, see what discussions and debates have been brewing on Dean's World and (if I feel so moved) join in myself.

BTW— "best little bakery in Madison"— which place are you talking about? You'll have to pardon me, it's been four or five years since I've lived in Madison. :)

I'm with you, Dean, Mr. Esmay. I've had it with the totalitarians of both "Right" and "Left". They're despicable. The "fag"-hater, of course, and par for the course for ChristiaNazis (by which I mean those Christians who choose to behave like Nazis). But the Politically Correct Communist gun-haters turning a good man, the kind of man I like enormously, into a "fag"-hater -- that is _really_ loathsome, really monstrous. The fact that you react as you do to this, Dean, shows me that you are a good man and should keep on blogging. I hope you never, ever have to close comments down, I love reading them, but I can see why you might consider it. Others have in the past when serial loathsomeness got out of hand (e.g., Arthur Silber, Rachel Lucas, Bill Whittle). I hope that doesn't happen here. Damn those creeps who ruin it for everyone else.

I wrote: "The fact that you react as you do to this, Dean, shows me that you are a good man and should keep on blogging." Not that I didn't think so before, or I wouldn't be reading you as I do, but this definitely confirms it. Thank you.

Please, Dean, don't confuse a homophobic gay-basher with a "good Christian." Jesus most certainly would not have condoned or promoted that kind of behavior - witness the fact that he associated most often with people that, in the society of His time, were outcasts and common people: prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen. Jesus was a carpenter by trade, not one of the religious leaders of His day.

Anyone that represents himself or herself as a Christian, yet threatens others with violence is an embarrassment to the faith (at the least!). It distresses me very much to hear these things. For those of you that think this is how Christians should behave, you are wrong! Spend some time thinking, and ask yourselves if Jesus would treat people that way. I can assure you, the answer is "no!"

Paul, it's good to hear from you again. The best little bakery in Madison is La Brioche, on Midvale Blvd just north of Tokay, right next to the Sequoia Public Library on Madison's west side.

There are places that serve dark brown pisswater and call it coffee. La Brioche isn't one of them. Their brand is "Equal Exchange". They brew it fresh and often, and glory to the heavens, their French Roast decaf actually tastes like coffee!

Those almond bear claw croisants? I wouldn't pass a day without my share of one, if I'm anywhere near Madison. (So as to not overdo the calories or carbs, I share one each day with my wife. When she's working at the Madison Metropolitan School District, I chop it in half and bring her share back to her so she can have it when she gets home.)

La Brioche specializes in European-style baking. Which means their breads actually have crust on them and don't squish in your hands like Wonder Bread or stuff of that ilk. My wife being a European, little things like this help brighten her day.

On the down side, this place has got only about five small indoor tables plus a couple of tables outside, and around lunch time it fills up with the bakery cognocenti. They're squeezed into that little mall with the public library on one side and a vacuum cleaner shop on the other. The library will never move, and the mister vacuum cleaner has refused all offers to relocate so they can expand the bakery. But one learns to appreciate what one gets in life, as opposed to what one dreams of getting and rarely does.

Some time when you're intending to come over to south central Wisconsin, shoot over an email and we'll treat you to some nice stuff at this little place.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Pete, I'd say give up. If someone who identifies himself as a Christian threatens a gay guy, well, we never hear the end of it.

Listen or read in vain for reports of the good done by the larger mass of christians every day.

Some friends & I visited and sang and I played my guitar at a birthday party at an old folks' home a couple Saturdays ago. I've done it several times now. Y'know what, I haven't seen any Brights there handing out cupcakes.

Guess that makes me a fag-basher.

Sorry, Brian. I can't give up. Read 1 Peter 3:15. You're right that if Christians do something wrong, it's trumpeted all over and thrown in Christian's faces. That's because, I think, that people rightly don't like hypocrisy. If we, as Christians, are claiming standards for morality, we ought to live up to them as best we can, and when a Christian (or someone claiming to be a Christian) so egregiously violates the standard, the world is justified in pointing that out.

No one is perfect, but Christians ought to be trying harder, true? We won't succeed 100% of the time, and we will suffer ridicule and shame because of it, but that's part of the cost.

People who think homosexuality is sinful are as ridiculous as peope who think one's skin color makes them inferior. Dean, I love your blog, but I can only stomach so much intolerance. Yes, I guess I am intolerant of intolerance. Fundamentalist Christianity is more radical and socially damaging than anything coming out of the gay community. It sickens me that people can take obscure passages out of a book and condemn a whole group of people. Where's the outrage against divorce? If you read the Bible, you will clearly see that Jesus spoke strongly against divorce. You don't see divorced people being banned from military service or denied the right to remarry do you? And why the hell are we eating pork and not keeping the sabbath day holy? You know why? Because we pick and choose what we want to because it is easy for us.

Comments like:

"Well, as one of those who believes in the sinfulness of homosexuality,"

"I am not a fan of homosexuality"

"I don't like homosexuality,"

What a bunch of self-righteous, intolerant jackasses! Eff it Dean. Your blog is the best I've ever read. Keep up the great work. You're a great American.

Tim the Soldier

Dean, you're doing good work here. Your motto, Defending the liberal tradition, is a noble cause that you live up to. The huge majority of your commenters are intelligent, thoughtful, decent people, whether or not *I* agree with them. Don't let yourself become disheartened because Evil shows its ugly mug from time to time. Just soldier on, as you've been doing.

Dean

Please don't give up your blog. There will always be cretins on either side of the Left or Right who totally misrepresent the values that
the majority live by. If you give up, then
as we all said in the days after the WTC "the
terrorsts win" because, indeed these hateful
extremists use terror whether by verbal or physical assaults to try to defeat the other side.

I am a Christian and what Pete says is right on.
I absolutely reject the Christian extremist who
for some stupid reason wants to vilify gays and lesbians. And Tim is right. Christians need to clean house. All sin is displeasing to God.
But we are commanded "he who is without sin shall cast the first stone," And we are to love others first as we would love ourselves.
I just wish wholeheartedly that ALL Christians weren't tarred by the same brush as the people who call themselves "Christians" but bring a perverted message of hatred (Phelps from Topeka comes to mind) for a selected minority in our country.

Could you warn your readers that if anything of this sort happens again, that the recipient of the hate-mail should feel free to forward the message to you and the sender will be permanently banned from your site? Dean, I only discovered the blogosphere a few months ago. Your's is the first one I read every day for humor, philosophy, and just plain decency and common sense. Please don't let some low-lifes shut you down. We would all be the poorer for it.

Tolerance is to disagree and not take action. I am not a fan of homosexuality, but I am tolerant of it. I advocate no legal actions against self proclaimed homosexuals.

Accusing those that disagree with one as being intolerant is merely name-calling. It does nothing to make a logical case for one's position. Many people resort to name-calling, when their arguments no longer carry the day – witness the nine dwarves running for office.

Pete, I'm well aware of my failings as a human and a Christian, and I suppose it's yet another one of those feelings to find vaguely ridiculous, not to mention arrogant, people who reject my faith, yet feel it appropriate to throw up to me their own view of my failure to live up to it.

[Calming down, chewing some Prozac]

I'm hoping that just reminding people what civil behavior is all about will be helpful.

In the meantime, I think Jane's suggestion that I'll publish any abusive mail my readers receive, along with the address of whoever sent it, is probably the best idea I've heard.

Dean, unfortunately our society has abandoned the last pretenses of holding people to "civil behavior". When coupled with the distance of the internet, you get the offensive postings and email you've described . In fact, you wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've gotten at times.

It just takes a thick skin.

Tim, oddly enough where I might agree with your position on homosexuality, I am quite tired of the attitude that tolerance == acceptance of another's beliefs as valid.

Good plan, Dean.

Light of Day meet Cockroach. Cockroach, Light of Day.

It won't work 100%, but it will serve as a disincentive.

The other option, which would be a longer term solution, is to remove the display of commenter's e-mail address. You can still collect it (in case you want to follow up in private). If they list a website, that can display because they probably have a method of dealing with trolls/spam and are used to this sort of thing (and can laugh it off because they're used to it, or they better get used to it, because that comes with the territory).

Oh my, I feel just like the others here, Dean. We really want you to keep blogging. This kind of nonsense is unfortunate and the people that were emailed know you, and especially know you had no part in it, and I'm sure they did not want to tell you.

Gosh Dean, it's like you newspaper is being delivered all over the country, well, and other countries. You have no control over some idiot that reads your paper and does something foolish! My gosh, there would be no N.Y. Times, Chicago Tribune, or USA Today. People react to all kinds of things, they find any EXCUSE to take their anger out on a group they don't like, or feel like puching someone because they are having a bad day.

Now you will know what to do when some jerk trys to pull something like this again,

We like your blog so much. I am like your readers. I look forward to reading what is swirling around in your brilliant mind and what you decide to put in your post, that in itself is preet neat! I am the ole lady that is waiting for you to put in another story. I like what Paul Burgess said to you, listen to the small wee voice. He did what you said, that at times you wanted to do-move out to the country with your books.

It's good to see you back Paul, I remember when Dean had spend all night outside with his good friend Moe and they were talking about God. Paul, you had written from one of your favorite author's- Peirce. The writing was very deep and way out there. I had to go back and reread it and then it grasped me and I had to go get the book because of that Paul.

And Arnold, you wouldn't believe how much I agree with you on things, especially our borders.
Dean, you have some great quality readers. We need you.

Oh, Paul, I may be going to the Mayo Clinic in the next wk. to 10 days and staying w/my friend that is 15 min. away from there. How far are you from the Mayo?

Hey Dean bring us some laughter or a story like you J-LO & Affleck, you got a great sense of humor man, & we love you.

Tim: your position is nearly as offensive as the "fag bashers" (of any stripe) or the "ChristiNazis."

The only difference is that you are intolerant while claiming to be in favor of tolerance. I think this is technically known as "hypocracy."

You don't have to like the folks who think that homosexuality is a sin, but you are obligated, as a citizen, to extend to them the same courtesy that you would to other fellow citizens.

Please note these aren't "bashers," or "haters." They don't parade around with signs saying that all gays are damned to Hell.

Perhaps this is where you fail to differentiate between those who "hate the sin, but love the sinner," and those who just hate. The latter group certainly exists, and it is not difficult to find examples who hate in the name of God and Christ. This does not mean they speak with the voice of the Lord, now does it?

Dean: I join those who have plead with you not to disable comments here. Not only because (as others have said) it adds to much to the blog, and our lives, but because I feel that you can't take responsibility for someone else's asinine behavior. Apparently the twit "fag basher" picked on someone encountered thru your blog.

Do you really think this was the first time they've ever played the troll? I doubt it. And even if you do shut down comments, that wouldn't stop the trolls for a moment. They'll just find somewhere else to feed, and other targets to abuse.

So keep the comments running, and keep the faith. Testify to the right and the good, and keep in your heart the wisdom of the great General "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell:

Illegitemati non Carborundum!

With next to no background in scripture study, I have a notion about the biblical take on homosexuality, as well as the sin of Onan. The early Hebrews, after the exodus from Egypt, were a struggling band of desert nomads in desperate need of building their numbers to assure the survival of their lineage. Non-procreative sex, 3500 years ago, was obviously unhelpful.

Despite many years of Catholic schooling, I simply cannot imagine a Supreme Being getting pissed because some lonely person rubs some nerve endings the right way, or two lonely persons do the same for one another. Doesn't SB have something more important to attend to?

Dean, while I love to read your writings, the commenters on your blog really make it a great read. Please do not shut down comments, stop blogging or run off to a log cabin somewhere. You are an inspiration.

Cant' speak for everyone but I'm one loving Christian,

I'm a pro-homosexual polytheist, but I am not against all Christians by any means, if anyone thought so. Pete Nelson and Brian Jones, respectively, illustrate perfectly what it is that I like about some Christians and what I dislike about some others. Pete Nelson is genuinely indignant at the attack on the gay man, he unequivocally condemns it as wrong. Good for him! Bless you, Mr. Nelson. Brian Jones, by contrast, is outraged that others are outraged, that someone said something bad about Christians. This, even though Mr. Esmay put "good Christians" in quotes and regularly goes out of his way to be more than fair to them, he is extremely generous in fact, far more than I am. Mr. Jones's response reminds me of a number of Muslims right after the atrocity of September 11, 2001. They were more angry that people were saying bad things about Muslims or Islam than they were that 3,000 human beings had been murdered.

I don't think you owe it to people to give them a forum, but for what it's worth, reading bloggers/essayists is one of the things that sustain my faith that American etiquette can be revived (not much else does). The infrequency with which discussions disintegrate into nastiness is inspiring.

And if that poor gun enthusiast isn't too scarred by his encounter with our special homo brand of jerks: Trust me, right now, there are people coming out in your town whose reaction to these idiots is the same as mine was when I went to my first (and last) LGBA meeting in college--Yecch! I have to be like these people?! If you're in the habit of giving gun formal shooting lessons or informal help with practice, or whatever, just do it in a way that shows you're not put off by people who are obviously queer. Word will get around.

Dean,

Someone already pointed out the need for a thick skin, so I'll just second that motion. Back in the 80's, the LA Times ran an article about someone wanting to get some absurd "reparations" for slavery and I wrote a rather hot letter to the editor about the very concept - much to my surprise, it was printed; I got death threats. Such is life (or, just perhaps, death).

The other thing is to recognize the patent absurdity of totally free speech. Start selectively taking away responses which are gross (you being the sole judge in the matter) and ban people who post impolite (once again, you the judge) things on your blog. You'll get a few fools complaining about "censorship", but the net effect for civilization will be good.

You've got a really good thing going here - something which, I think, can become a major social, political and philosophical force. I've been to a lot of blogs and this is the best of the best; proof positive being the excellent manner in which a submission I made was rejected for lack of factual support (I'll re-write and re-submit) - most people just want something contentious for the sheer contentiousness of it; you want an exchange of rational ideas. Keep it up.

Hatred and violence have nothing to do with left wing, right wing, gays, non-gays, Christians, non-Christians. No matter if you have a religious affiliation or not, good and bad exists.

Hatred and evil exists. I was attacked in a grocery store parking lot in Romulus..does that mean I should never buy groceries again? Should a few nasty emails make you go to a room with your books? Hell no. Why should you let evil win?

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have them spew their venom in an email than out on the streets. At least this way you can easily spot the fools.

I understand your anger...but please do not cave in.

Arnold:

Ah, okay— Midvale Blvd., Sequoia branch library— I'm not familiar with the bakery itself, but that places it in my head, in my mental map of Madison.

Janelle:

Omigosh, so I've actually moved someone to read Peirce! Well, I'm pleased as punch to hear that. In my own judgment, Charles Sanders Peirce was the greatest philosopher the United States has ever produced. Though not an easy read.

The Mayo Clinic up in Rochester is, I suppose, 90 or 100 miles from me. I'll be keeping you in my prayers.

Dean:

That idea of publishing egregiously abusive e-mails, along with e-mail address, sounds like a good one. Hey, I mean, if Dave Barry can publish that telemarketers' phone number... ;)

Casey,

If I blogged that "Casey Tompkins is an intelligent, insightful, and an overall great American." You would find someway to disagree with me. Maybe the language in my posts comes across anti-organized religion, well, because I am in alot of ways. I should recognize that much good has been done my the religious community and that many followers are geniune and compassionate people that practice religious and social tolerance. I'm still a damned atheist though.

Tim the Soldier

Hey, I stand second to none in my outrage at gay bashing. But no gay bashing is taking place here; however, the "good Christian" (yes, with quotes) canard is being propagated by someone who might not realize what he's doing. I'm sorry, but I see scoffers and Brights using it all the time, quotes and all, to signal their disdain for believers. How many times do you folks deploy "good Christian" *without* the quotes in the average day? week? year?

(Yes, I'm aware and am suitably chastened by Gandhi's great quote, to the effect of, "I'd probably become a Christian if I ever met one.")

Just because I'm addressing a side issue in the discussion doesn't make me tolerant of gay bashing.

Dean,

I think you're taking this too personally. If we post it, we can take the heat even from the idiots. We don't hold you responsible for such foolishness.

It's not like we only run into them via your blog.

It's not like we only run into them via your blog.

Well, now you've gone and let the cat out of the bag.

Come on guys. You know I'm the source of all evil in the blogosphere.

Well, me and the Puppy Blender.

Tim:
"Maybe the language in my posts comes across anti-organized religion."

I have to say it did, to me, in this case!

Perhaps this is why I seem to disagree with you so much: what you mean to say is not what I read. Food for thought, for both of us.

And, BTW, not only am I "intelligent, insightful, and an overall great American," I'm damn good-looking* too!

So yes, I'll disagree with you again. :) (just kidding)

*ask Rose, she'll tell you. Heh.

Well, I sincerely doubt anyone will have the patience to scroll down and read this, but:

I think it is a mistake to look at people who use or advocate violence as a function of a religious group or political leaning. Christianity doesn't teach violence, Islam doesn't teach violence, Republicans don't teach violence, and Democrats don't teach violence.

Violence is most often a product of youth. When some teenagers in a rural town get drunk, bored, and decide to go "beat up a fag", it has nothing to do with their voting practices or church membership, it has everything to do with being young jerks who can't figure out a better way to release their aggression. A decade ago, they would have gone to beat up a black. A decade before that, they would have gone to beat up a bookworm. A decade before that, they probably would have gone to rape a woman or something.

A decade from now, the newsmedia will be ignoring/supressing news of gays going around and beating/raping straights.

Yes, there were times when it was 30- and 40- year olds doing it: the Klu Kux Klan, among others. But these are people who never outgrew their adolescent simplistic hatred. The more we integrate society and educate people, the less problems like this we will have.

What the hell is wrong with people?

They exist.

Dean,

Your desire to run away and these people's desire to kill and destroy are two different expressions of the same impulse. Theirs is simply far more effective.

Since the dawn of time, the most effective way to solve a problem is to kill those responsible for it. Why be surprised that people notice this? Most of us advocate it in some way or other (e.g. killing Saddam Hussein).

Human beings are incompatible with each other*. That's what makes getting along in a liberal democracy so... interesting. But you've never going to find a time or place in which people don't realize that it's more effective to kill your opponents than to reason with them.

That doesn't make it the moral option, of course, but reason over emotion is falling out of fashion these days.

But if you run away, they're just going to find you again. Moreover, people will just move to a different message board and pick up where they left off.

As Donald Rumsfeld was fond of saying, "do no good and no harm shall come of it."

*Explanations for this incompatibility vary. Christians generally call it original sin. Atheists will likely explain it as all organisms being in competition with each other and there being no selective pressure to get along with everyone (note: one's small group of relatives, e.g. a trive, is not everyone).

There are times when I too question my faith in mankind... Sometimes, I think extremes exist on both sides as lessons in how I don't want to be.

There will always be someone out there who is of the extreme. Whether it's a gay-basher or an uber-gay avenger, they're afraid of something [or someone] so they will lash out.

I choose to absorb as much information as I can on issues, to see all sides and understand where others are coming from. Ignorance isn't always bliss, and it can lead to fear. I suppose it's easier for some to just close their minds and fight off those things and ideas that differ from so-called accepted points-of-view. But that leads once again to fear and fear just leads to hate.

Where does that lead us?

Nathan: I'm not sure it isn't wishful thinking to claim that religions don't (as in don't ever) teach violence.

Christianity seems less scripturally violence-prone, but Christianity-in-the-world has often taught violence.

Islam-in-the-world unequivocally teaches violence in certain circumstances, and while I don't have a Koran handy, I'm pretty sure there are scriptural references to the acceptability of or even duty to convert Infidels to Islam, with the alternative being death.

Perhaps religion shouldn't teach violence; perhaps if you squint just right, neither Islam nor Christianity, in some uncertain "pure" form and specific interpretation, can be thought not to in any respect. But sober appreciation of the real-world facts of the religions suggests that it is not essential to either that they not teach violence.

(Violence, at any rate, is not wrong, or evil. Violence that is not justified or properly directed is wrong (or even evil). I'm certain Islam permits (indeed, commands, I believe) violence in defense of the faith ... and certainly permits it for defense of the person. Almost all christians suggest Christianity allows self defense. But that's still "violence".)

(To be clear, I certainly don't think that properly consituted Christianity teaches violence against people for being sinners, which is what's truly relevant.)

I dunno, Dean. I think I know what's wrong with people, but I'm not ready to face it or talk about it yet.

There's a clue, however: read the first comment in this thread. Understanding that comment is the first step in understanding what's wrong with people.

There are, in general, two temperaments: people who want to make other people do things, and people who want to be left alone. I'm firmly in the second camp. I've only ever wanted to be left alone, and I've only ever been beset upon by people who wanted to make me do things. This has helped me become a person with a capacity for verbal and rhetorical viciousness. But in my personal life I'm kind, fair and generous to the people I love, as much as I know how to be. I'm a good host. I'm a fair-to-middling boyfriend and house mate.

But I think that when anyone feels tread upon, they'll express their own capacity for viciousness, regardless of their personal philosophy.

I don't think my take on your experience is important, except to say that I'm not surprised. There are people who wish gay people nothing but ill, and there are people who wish straight people (especially gun enthusiasts) nothing but ill. And of course both viewpoints are wrong.

Again: read that first comment. Then re-read it. I really think the answer is in there.

Right on, John.

I'm a gun owner, sort of big time considering the federally-registered class III firearms I own and shoot. And people truly get on my nerves lecturing me about how I shouldn't have the right to own this or that firearm and classifying me as a danger to the society even before knowing one damned thing about me personally.

About homosexuals and their rights. As a straight guy, my life is totally separated from theirs. And while I can't say I think well about homosexuality, I have no interest in bothering them about it beyond that point. Just so they don't try to teach this stuff to my kids in school as if it were -- or ought to be --normative behavior.

It's a busy world and we're all getting busier, and the amount of time we can devote to listening to folks preach to us about this and that is becoming more and more limited, if we are to get our daily work done.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Well, and Arnold, I'd say that sex education has no place in schools. Schools can inform the parents, who can inform the kids if they want.

On the other side of that equation, speaking as a kid who was openly gay in high school, it should also never be taught in school that homosexuality is evil or bad or unwanted. I believe that schools should be neutral on the subject, in order to accommodate the very different kinds of people with different background who go to public schools for an education.

Private schools are entirely a different matter.

Mr. Jones: I'm glad to hear you say you share our outrage at gay-bashing. You say no gay-bashing is taking place here in this thread. Well, it was precisely a gay-bashing, and obviously a vicious one, along with another bashing by gun-haters, that moved Dean Esmay to write the post that started this whole thread. There is no Christian-bashing going on in this thread or on this blog, none at all. If you've been reading Dean at all, you'd know that he constantly goes out of his way, bends over backwards, to be more than fair to Christians _and_ to gays and lesbians _and_ to most other people. Christians are _not_ being persecuted in this country.
John Kusch: You said everything, as usual. Thank you. I urge everyone to read John's own blog, Letters From a Strip of Dirt, as well as Dean's World. He is extremely insightful. I find that he can say in one single post what most bloggers never quite say in all of theirs.

Mr. Anderson,

Although I'd have to agree with you that Christians are not, in general, persecuted in the U.S. I do think that some Christian-bashing occurs. As an example, read the previous post by "Tim the Soldier." He may not think it's Christian-bashing, but as a Christian, I read it with dismay. It offends me to a certain degree, but I also am not surprised by it. I understand why people think that Christians are intolerant, given what passes for Christianity amongst too many people that claim to be Christians. I am most definitely not perfect, but the outright bigotry of some "Christians" is beyond any standard of true Christian attitude or behavior.

Let's remember, on the other hand, that Christians have a right to their opinions and beliefs as much as anyone else, and disagreement is not the same as intolerance. I've written an essay on the topic in my blog, if anyone cares to read it.

Okay, first of all no "Good Christian" would be threatening to harm anyone. Just because a person applys a title himself (or herself) does not make it an accurate title. "Good Christians" do not operate that way.
I find it insulting that people imply that anyone who is liberal is automatically anti-gun and anti-gay.
I am also puzzled because it has been my understanding that the 'right' were the hardline Christian conservatives. Hasn't our own President made it clear his opinion on Gay Issues? Am I mistaken that he is the LEADER of the right?
I like to think of myself as a slighly left leaning Independent.
In fact aren't liberals usually the ones opposed to violence?
In fact isn't it usually the right-wing extremest that threaten violence?
Weren't Republicans recently torn over the Arnold (hell if I can spell his last name) win. He is a Republican but he's so left leaning it sort of takes some of the fun out of winning.
At any rate, Dean, I have only discovered you, please don't quit now. There is so much more for me to learn here. And clearly you are a popular guy, just LOOK at all the comments. Heck, I am lucky if I get 3 a day.

Dean,

I guess you realize that moving to the backwoods with a pile of books won't make the cretins go away. But writing with a keen eye and a dedication to justice, truth, and the American way *can* help some people not be fooled by the cretins.

Do not abandon the concept of civil behavior. High standards make room for more high standards.

You've work to do, man. Pull up your socks.

[ What do you even say in response to stuff like this? Me? I say, "Go away, little asshats. Thinking people are too busy to give you our attention." Then forward the illegal ones to the proper authority.

Dean,
I know this is an older post, I been on the road and not reading blogs for a bit, also I don't have time at the moment to read all these comments, I just hope there is more signal than noise there.

The internet is a medium that any person can access, with even some slight inkling of a brain a person can get online and spew their nonsense for any to read, or even threaten.

The other instance, life has shown me time and time again, some people that consider themselves "different" or "oppressed" are so addicted to or dependent on this status, they will irrationally defend themselves from some non-existant threat.
Don't get me wrong, there are infact still evil people that bash gays, keep minorities down out of spite, and generally hate others for stupid reasons.

Dean, just because these people find your site, it does not mean there is anything you can do about it, you are doing a great thing with your essays and thoughts, in a sea of right vs left, you tell the facts along with your opinion all tempered with reason.
Keep up the good work.

(Yes my spelling is horrid, highschool dropout x3)
Cinomed