These aren't the effects of banning school prayer. These are crazy, paranoid postulations.

I could just as easily say that me going to school one cloudy Tuesday is what caused the 9/11 disasters...because school started around the same time that it happened.

Shortly after the Supreme Court banned public school prayer, John F. Kennedy was assassinated. The U.S. became deeply involved in a winless war in Vietnam that ultimately took 58,000 American lives. Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were assassinated. In every American city, what was once relatively benign juvenile delinquency became lethal gang activity.

Please. Show me a connection and I'll be willing to give this essay a second look.

Oh, my stars & garters; will I be actually agreeing with dowingba here?? I believe I will. :)

Ok, I'm not up with the "crazy, paranoid" remark, but I agree that there is little evidence of any causality involved.

I am reminded of a comment a while ago from a fellow who remarked that teaching Latin in schools seemed to create better students; as evidence he compared the academic standing of schools that taught Latin to those that didn't. Certainly, the schools that included Latin averaged much higher in performance than those that didn't.

But... I had a simple question that drew him up short: I asked "Is that because learning Latin makes you a better student, OR that schools that include Latin in the curriculum generally tend more to emphasize learning?"

He nodded, and replied that that was very good question that had never occured to him. :)

My point here is: is this a reflection of not having school prayer, or a reflection of not having any definable scholastic discipline in general?

Dowingba,

Do you ever think about anything you believe?

I'm serious here - have you ever sat quietly and reflected upon what you hold to be true?

Show you a connection! Oh, puhleeese...thats just a dodge. You don't want to acknowledge that our society is vastly more depraved than it used to be and you sure in hell don't want to ask how it got this way.

Did taking prayer out of schools do it? Of course not. No, duh...but taking out prayers, allowing an increasingly mind-numbing bit of subhuman filth to be spewed into children via music, TV and movies, failing to enforce discipline, destroying poor families via welfare, adults not being held to their duties...all these things have caused the problem. It was a huge, culmulative effect of a host of idiocies...and the termination of prayer in schools can reasonably be put down at the first step on this road to hell.

Anyone who carefully thinks about where we are and where we were comes to the conclusion that we desperately need a bit of the old medicine.

You don't want to acknowledge that our society is vastly more depraved than it used to be and you sure in hell don't want to ask how it got this way.

Right on, Mark!!! We are way worse off now than when we kept slaves, lynched black men, and burned witches. I guess that was BEFORE we instituted the scholastic moment of silence.

PS - Dean, outstanding job. It is truly a work of art to post something so ridiculous on it's face that it is immediately satirical, without having to post even one comment saying so. Heh!

I agree partially with Joshua's premise, and I liked his short essay. While a lot of the reasoning is post hoc, it nonetheless, I think, contains a lot of truth.

Eliminating prayer in the schools was a very divisive act, it was undemocratic to the extreme, and was a big battle in the cultural war, that is, to drive religion out of the public sphere.

And prayer works, too, so I'm not surprised that test scores peaked in 1964, and have floundered ever since. Education without spiritual practice or the protection of God is in fact dangerous. There has been a steady coarsening of our culture since then. But a lot of that also was caused by the rise of television, mass media and other things of this nature.

The breakdown of public schools, especially in the inner city, also had to do with other court decisions in the late 1960s, but I forget which. I think it had to do with making it difficult to expel unruly students, and from what I understand, that changed the schools overnight.

In any case, good job, Joshua.

This is a silly article, and here's why:

Having raised two kids through middle school and high school (so far) I'd say that the real issue here is a lack of classroom discipline, not a lack of silence per se.

Well, if you read his article as describing the irony of the fact that eliminating the moment of silence eliminated moments of silence, then it's kind of cool.

But the article is more problematic if you see a direct connection between ending school prayer and difficulty with classroom discipline. The classroom discipline element certainly includes the banning of prayer, I think. But the most important element of the discipline issue is kids know they won't be expelled if they act up.

And oh, Sherard -- that's all that happened back then. Burning of witches. Keeping slaves. And lynching blacks. That's the entire history of those times.

Talk about self-parody, dude.

I could just as easily (and wrongly) argue that the problem started much earlier with the advent of women's sufferage. The connections posited by Mr. Siskin simply show no evidence of existing.

How would Mr. Siskin explain the (to me very surprising) fact that New York City placed number two in this years list of America's SAFEST cities to live in? More prayer on public transportation, perhaps?

My own estimate is that Mr. Siskin suffers from the one-tool-in-the-box syndrom. If the only tool you own is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. Mr. Siskin has faith in god as his only tool. In the world viewed from his line of sight, every problem exists as a result of a failure apply that tool. He should get more tools.

The problem is not a lack of classroom discipline, it's a lack of parental discipline. This decline as the author sees it does start coincidently with the decline of school prayer, and the dramatic increase of two income families. Is either causal? I don't know, but based on what I see coaching youth sports, at cub scouts, etc., parents today don't expect respectful behavior from their kids. Do kids today ever use the words sir and maam? Mine do. I think there is some connection - parents that only get 2 hours a day with their kids awake are reluctant to be the hard ass parents sometimes need to be. They try to hard to be their kids friend in that time and forgot that they are a parent first, friend second. Yes, its a generalization, but I see it every day.

Mark:

I went to a Catholic school for a couple of years back in the day. A school that had morning prayer rituals every morning. I can tell you this right now, without exaggeration: 100% of the students at that school did drugs, smoked, drank, fought...many kids brought weapons to school, there were brutal gang wars almost every day...one student got expelled for threatening to kill everyone in the school and later arrested for burning several churches. It was a school of about 300 students.

I'm not making this up, not one word of this is exaggerated. "...we desperately need a bit of the old medicine." Not likely...

So apparently, we've completely taken responsibility for raising children properly off of parents' shoulders and placed it all firmly on prayer in schools? Puh.

I would appreciate only if Mr. Sisken and those who agree with him pause for a moment of silence, indefinitely.

There is no one single cause of our schools' troubles. So whenever I hear a person say - 'A' is the cause of all our trouble, they should be immediately discounted. There are many troubles *and* many ways to fix those troubles.

In our country, one of the great things about our country was the recognition by our forefathers, Madison in particular, who recognized that acknowledging a single religion over another immediately creates an unequal situation within society. That implies that the minority will receive some special protections that the majority will not. But the founders were very careful to also not to infringe upon the idea that a person could pursue his religion as he sees fits, so long as it remained separate from the state.

Whether its obvious or not, this country has religious freedom, perhaps unparalled in the world today. Review, but a few examples from recent memory where this is not the case - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Israel to name but a few. In each country, religion and government are inexoribly tied. Bound at the hip if you will. Those systems don't permit much room for people of different faiths to exist, let alone maintain the same rights as the majority.

In order for the United States to remain out of such quagmires, it has to create a separation at some point without infringing on the rights of its citizens. Sometimes that means that personal religious acts will be banned in public or government places. But that doesn't in anyway infringe on the rights of anyone to hold certain beliefs.

Let's look at two examples, one mentioned in this article & one in the news.

The Alabama 10 commandments issue... Here was a case where a federal court decided that the displaying of a certain monument was inappropriate in a governmental institutions. No one ruled that the Judge Moore could not hold his beliefs, could not maintain his occupation or had to in anyway give up his pursuits. No instead they said move the monument because it was an inappropriate religious symbol. For all that the court said, Mr Moore could recite the 10 commandments quietly to himself every morning before his eggs & bacon. He could have the monument moved to his front yard. Or to a private church, or other privately held property.... On the same note, no one can put a monument to the Koran, the Dhamma, or other religious entities up either.... It's a way to balance the playing field.

Now this column....A moment of silence for the sole purpose of prayer has been deemed unconstitutional. Why? Go read the judicial orders to understand the details. No one is preventing students from quietly praying to themselves before school, or thinking of God during the day. In fact, across the street from my local high school, a few students gather to pray everyday before school. The right of belief isn't being infringed upon, just the public display of that faith in *some* places, not all.

Cobb: Right back atcha.

Eric: As the saying goes, as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools.

Must suck to live in your world, Noonan.

Eric, I'd be astounded if you could in any way justify putting Israel alongside Afghanistan, Pakistan, & Iran in a list of countries that "don't permit much room for people of different faiths to exist, let alone maintain the same rights as the majority."

And prayer works, too, so I'm not surprised that test scores peaked in 1964, and have floundered ever since. Education without spiritual practice or the protection of God is in fact dangerous. There has been a steady coarsening of our culture since then. But a lot of that also was caused by the rise of television, mass media and other things of this nature.

Suffice to say, Bill, if you think life was better in the times of lynchings, slaves, and witch burnings, I would love to get a little of that stuff you are smoking!!! Yee ha

Now, onto your quoted passage above....

Um, yeah. I think maybe you're onto something there pal. So I'll give you the prayer thing - at say 1.3% of the problem, and maybe TV, video games, internet chat, and hanging at the local mall the other 98.7%.

If you disagree, try this little exercise...

Little Mary has a math test tomorrow. She is currently sitting on the couch watching TV. Which do you think will be more effective in assuring Mary a good grade on her test?

"Mary, I think you should say a little prayer for Divine intervention on your test tomorrow"

OR

"Mary, why don't you turn off the damn TV and go to your room and study for that math test."

Yeah, yeah. Strawman argument. I know. But I'd put even money on the strawman to come up with a more legitimate argument than "eliminating school prayer is the root cause of the downfall of the American education system".

Man, you can't make up stuff like that!!!

Strawman argument? No, you have a point. Mary should turn off the TV and get down to work. A prayer before studying may help, too. You see, spiritual practice (including meditation) helps clear the mind, center the soul and prepare yadda yadda c'mon you know what I'm talking about.

Now your remarks about lynchings, witch burnings and slavery -- those were strawmen arguments. The past wasn't only those things, and those weren't the only things motivated by faith in God, specifically, God of the Bible. And you know that, too.

Owen: Israel is heavily involved in religious conflicts within its borders and outside its borders. Also within Israel, Orthodox Judaism holds virtually all of the power within government. More liberal and moderate traditions hold far less. Therefore, laws lean more heavily towards the orthodoxy branch. There are other areas of contention.... I don't mean to suggest that the degree of religious intolerance is the same as the other countries I listed. But it is far greater than the US.

I just think there is a difference in kind rather than just in degree between stoning someone for their religious practices versus letting them vote.

Bill, how to flip flop there. Education is dangerous without prayer... Or, no, I mean, you should say a prayer before studying, it might help, too.

Which is it, Bill ? Suggesting that education in this country has crumbled because the elimination of school prayer is just pathetic. To actually try and defend that statement is moreso.

I never inferred that slavery, lynchings, or witch burning was caused by faith in God, let alone outright stating it as such. You, my friend, made that jump. The guilty conscious of the religious establishment? And, Bill, in case you didn't know, this country is FAR more religious now than it was, say 200 years ago. Most estimates put those that were members of a church at a generous 15% around about 1800. Today, that percentage is left for those that DON'T consider themselves a member of some religious establishment.

The "Good ole Days" weren't always so good, Bill.

You misused, "infer" and thus make my point. Maybe if you'd prayed during English class back in your school days, or at least before you'd written your comment ...

D'oh!

Why can't we all just skip the whole "school" thing and just pray for knowledge and work skills?

You see, spiritual practice (including meditation) helps clear the mind, center the soul and prepare yadda yadda c'mon you know what I'm talking about.

Or, you could, you know, just concentrate and pay attention and study and stuff like that. I find that works better for learning stuff than "spiritual practice."

When you're all done knocking around the straw men, let me know.

"Shortly after the Supreme Court banned public school prayer, John F. Kennedy was assassinated. The U.S. became deeply involved in a winless war in Vietnam that ultimately took 58,000 American lives. Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were assassinated. In every American city, what was once relatively benign juvenile delinquency became lethal gang activity."

So the root of all evil is the banning of prayer in schools? I'm sure this is the reason why we had 9/11 as well. Damn that separation of church and state.

Lets get all the parents to have a moment of silence in the morning before school starts to return the natural order to the world. If our "survival depends" on it I'm sure we will get more parental participation than normal.

My question is will the children that are atheists still cause chaos in the classroom? should we make them pray or merely blame them for all that goes wrong with the world?

I have a simple question for those who doubt that our acknowledgement of God may have an impact on the world around us.
Tell a gangbanger -- or any misbehaving kid, for that matter -- to watch out because "crime doesn't pay" and he will probably laugh in your face.
Tell that same kid that there is a God holding him accountable for everything he does and to Whom he will have to answer -- and there is a good chance that the kid will think about your words and conceivably change his ways.
When children spend most of their day in an environment (in public school and in front of the TV) where God is never mentioned, they grow up believing that God is not essential to their lives. Without an awareness of God's presence, children grow up thinking that the world is a jungle and that any type of behavior is justifiable.

Yeah, Josh, that'll work. "Don't point that gun at me, God is watching!" Famous last words? I guess no one read my comment about the Catholic school I went to where everyone, including me, was told repeatedly that God was watching and holding us accountable and blah blah blah. Did I mention the day I decided to leave that school was the day that every single kid in the school got suspended at once?

I am sorry about your experience at a Catholic school but I would still venture to say that American children, on the whole, would be far better off, in the long run, if they had a moment of silence -- and the opportunity to recite a voluntary prayer -- at school at the start of every day.

If a child wakes up at say, 7:30am, they have about an hour and a half to voluntarily pray. They can even be silent if they want.

Problem is, parents are in such a rush to get off to work themselves that they would not take even a moment of their time to guide their kids in prayer.
So you say: why should it be the schools' job to give kids a chance to pray? But the schools, instead, are providing kids with an alternative,
secular ideology which rejects the very idea of
the presence of God (or any moral authority) in our lives. Give a kid 7 or 8 hours of school
every day in which God is never mentioned and that kid will grow up, in most cases, without any
interest in God. Remember: the idea of America,
first and foremost, is a Godly idea; that there should be one vote for every person is a Godly idea. We are only created equal in reference to our souls, which are equal in the eyes of God. Why should the genius and the mentally ill each get one vote? Why should the violent individual and the care giver each get one vote? Only because the soul of each person is equally precious to God.