Cool!

So coveting is off the list (from the 10 commandments), and also honoring one's parents.

The forbidden sexual relations needs some clarification, of course. Does that mean adultery? Or really, really nasty stuff, the kind of stuff that shows up in your inbox as spam? If the former, well, I suppose we're just where we were. If the latter, well, then we have broad sexual license except for nasty, nasty things.

Unfortunately, it's Rule 7, the establishment of a justice system to enforce the other six laws things, that is problematic. It would involve enforcing prohibitions on idolatry (which can be an extremely expansive concept) as well as enforcing prohibitions on the vague concept of "immorality" in Rule 5. Who gets to decide what's immoral? Sounds like a rule created by a joint committee of trial lawyers and rabbis.

Now, seriously: There is some controversy over whether the Jews are God's chosen people, or God's specific people. As in, they were chosen for a specific purpose ... see the OT for details.

For me, the Noahide laws are less important for their specific content, than for establishing the principle that in Judaism, all of us -- Jews and non-Jews -- are judged based on how we've lived our lives.

NYer,

You aren't judged at all for how you've lived your life, unless you screwed over someone else's life, or did something for which the living will consider it worthwhile to remember you. Because there is nobody and nothing to judge you, unless you believe in fairy tales. In the end, you will die and your corpse will rot in the ground like a dead cockroach, regardless of what you did or did not do in life.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Attn: Arnold Harris

We're praying for you, and there's nothing you can do about it :)

Attn: Arnold Harris

I'm sorry for teasing you about an issue that obviously causes you some concern and/or unpleasentness. That was rather tacky. Still, we are praying for you. Not just so I can make some smart-alacky comment, but because we're actually concerned about where you spend eternity (thats a very long time to spend in Hell). Even though you seem a little cranky, its not like I think you're evil incarnate. I'm not smart enough or articulate anough to argue the existance of God convincingly for you. But, you might read any book by James Kennedy (a Christian philosopher).

You're right ALG. There's nothing I can do about it. Except to enjoy a good old-fashioned belly-laugh. So pray your head off, and amuse me until you are blue in the face. Everybody ought to have a good time before they check out, and that includes you as well as me.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

I'll pray for you, too, Mr. Harris.

I was watching a repeat (that's 're-run' in American English) of the James Bond film 'Diamonds are Forever' on Monday and the villain comes out with a fantastic line: 'Humility is the worst form of conceit'.

As an atheist, I don't indulge in the false humility of believing that I am merely the tiny creation of a god, because it isn't humility at all. It's a belief that we're all somehow special and descended from something even more special ... which loves us.

I have the real humility to think that I am descended from long-dead slime - from tiny organisms that evolved over millions of years.

Humans have existed for hundreds of thousands of years, yet the world's supposedly 'ancient' religions are a mere 1,300, 2,000 or 4,000 years old, depending on which one you believe. They are superstitions nothing more and they breed through fear.

I'm delighted that judaism survives as a culture and I wish the jewish people well for the future, but it saddens me that many still believe all the rules. I have a friend who observes the Sabbath and it means that I am deprived of his company for one seventh of his life. I've only once eaten food with him, as he only eats in kosher establishments. None of this makes his life fuller and the food rules are merely the dietary equivalent of not walking on the cracks in the pavement (sidewalk).

Think about it for one second. Why would a loving deity send its most vital message to one person to spread to all the others through person charisma? It's slow and never works.

And what's the point of prayer? If god is omniscient then he knows what's good for you, so don't try to change his mind!

DY

Thank you for praying for me, Bill. I, in turn, will think for you, since the one act precludes the other.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Arnold:

You're right: Thinking and praying are mutually exclusive. That's why none of the great intellectuals and writers of the world were/are devout believers.

And I in turn will sacrifice a chicken, and the smoke from burning its feathers shall waft due west to Mount Horeb.

Attn: Arnold. I hope you've read "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain. He thought it was so incendiary that he refused to let it be released before his death. A VERY large percentage of the population believes prayer is a powerful force. Its kinda like you've painted a big target on your head, publicly daring God to come and get you. I don't know you, but in a match with God I just don't see betting on someone from Mt. Horeb Wisconsin. I'll be praying for you too. (I'll at least have the grace to hope it doesn't go to hard for you) (Good Luck).

Thank you for praying for me, Bill. I, in turn, will think for you, since the one act precludes the other.

I've heard you say some controversial things before, but never anything quite so obviously and provably ridiculous.

They have MRIs now, Arnold, which can monitor which parts of the brain are being used during which activities. Exactly how much do you want to bet that no evidence whatsoever of any thinking process shows up on the screen during any prayer?

I will pray too--that the foul Demon of Silliness be cast out of you henceforth and forevermore.

Well, Jonathan,

You probably know more about brainwave scanning than I do. (All I know and care about modern medicine is what I need to know to reduce my blood pressure, LDLs and weight, and to keep melanoma from re-occuring; and in addition to that, what our family needs to know to help our daughter achieve her goal of getting admitted to medical school.)

But I know religiosity, Jonathan, having lived and studied in the Middle East for almost two years. In Jerusalem, no less. Right in the very cockpit of the most intensive religiosity that has ever inflicted itself on man as a rational animal.

I have had occasion to watch religious Moslems at prayer. I have had occasion to watch religious Jews at prayer. I have had occasion to watch religious Christians at prayer. (Through blood or marriage, I have relationships to all of them.)

I also have had occasion to question all these worthy folks about the nature of prayer itself. All of them have assured me that in order to communicate more fully with their divinity, they most pray with the full intensity of their being. In other words, no holding back, thinking about kosher hot dogs, today's baseball scores, or the virgins awaiting in paradise, when all your attention is supposed to be focused on the incessant war against an obscure tribe in the Sinai desert in tora, the revelations of the new testament, or one of suras of the quran.

In short, there a lot of praying people out there who would tell you that prayer is meaningless unless you figuratively drench yourself in it. And there a lot of thinking people out there who would tell you that concentration of thought is vital for purposes of mastering complex topics.

One more piece of evidence, Jonathan. I had a small motorcycle when I was an 18-year-old kid 51 years ago. One day I was riding it along a narrow side street in Chicago, and I made the mistake of letting my thoughts and attention wander. A dog jumped out from between two parked cars. I smacked the dog with my front wheel and flew over the handlebar, landing partially on my face and winding up in a nearby hospital for some stitches and some sage advice. So much for focusing my attention with only part of my brain.

Like I said, I'm only an amateur who knows what he needs to know and skips much of the rest. But if you know something that I don't about all this, I invite one of your erudite lectures.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Arnold Harris,

I'd be interested to hear your non-fairy tale explanation for how the universe came to exist in the first place. If you don't have one, I would submit that your contempt for those who believe in some kind of a divinity, and that life has meaning beyond fulfilling our material desires, is unwarranted.

I picked up a good book recently called, "America's Real War" written by Rabbi Daniel Lapin. I reccomend it to Christians and Jews alike. I'm bringing this up for a reason. In the book Rabbi Lapin makes a wonderful point. Liberal secularists, or just liberals or just secularists, take your pick, cannot believe in the Bible. They cannot because if the possibility exists that the Bible is right, their entire humanistic world comes crashing down. Look how vehimently those who feel God does not exist defend their... faith. The Bible states that those without a spiritual mind cannot comprehend spiritual matters. Many in the world don't want a spiritual mind because that would mean they'd have to take their humanistic mind from whatever play-thing captures their attention at the moment.

To athiests I say this: What's the point? If God does not exist and once we die that's it, what does it matter what we do in life? But, what if God does exist, what then?

As for humility... you can be humble and believe your special in all the universe. They're not mutually exclusive. When Jesus humbled Himself and washed the feet of His followers, did He cease being God? No. Having full measure of your worth doesn't mean you're not humble, you simply know where you stand in relation to everything else.

I don't know you, but in a match with God I just don't see betting on someone from Mt. Horeb Wisconsin.

Aw, for crying out loud.

All this time I thought Arnold was God.

...the hell?

God doesn't get very good press these days.
The problem is simply this: we live in a world
of sense gratification and God can neither be
seen nor touched. There is no series on TV starring God so people doubt His existence.

"To athiests (sic) I say this: What's the point? If God does not exist and once we die that's it, what does it matter what we do in life? But, what if God does exist, what then?"

Well if god doesn't exist then my jewish friend can have the wasted 14.28 per cent of his future life (all the future Friday\Saturdays), eat seafood, bacon, have sex (he's over 30 and not married) and do all kinds of other things that would inject more fun and spontaneity into his life.

Other people of faith could start to value human life out of compassion for people as they are, not as other creations of a deity. Nobody has to kill anyone else for being of a different faith (all the big three require you to be prepared to kill).

If god does exist, I'd like to know why he has killed my best friend aged 29, my cousin in Australia aged 24 and countless other good people who were loved by so many. And if my tiny human mind can't comprehend it now, why doesn't he increase my brain power until I can?

Why does he place any value whatsover on faith? An act of belief is an utterly worthless act. It just shows that you have lower standards of evidence. If Mohammed, Jesus, Abraham or whoever tells me that they have had a vision of god, fine for them, but there is no reason why I should believe them. I didn't get the vision, they did! If you want to tell the whole world something you tell everyone at once, with an e-mail. You don't tell one person and get them to spread the word. That is utterly doomed.

Christianity and Islam require you to believe that an all-knowing deity can have a personality change. Nonsense, pure nonsense.

DY

David Young: I'm sorry for your loss.

Your pain and anger seem close to the surface. Until those losses are healed, there's really not a lot for me to say because it would seem insensitive and even cruel.

I hope that you find peace in your heart about the loss of your friends, and wish for your heart to be healed. But I don't pretend it's easy.

Regards.

David Young,

As a non-Sabbath observing Jew, I'm probably not best equipped to respond to your frustration, but I'll try nonetheless. First, while I can't speak to your friends situation, I do believe that many observant Jews get something out of observing the Sabbath. Basically, it gives them a break from the everyday world, and an opportunity to recharge their batteries and focus on more spiritual thoughts and activities. It's not for everyone, but for some people it seems to add fulfillment to their lives. As far as your being deprived of your friend's company for one seventh of the time, if it makes you appreciate a little more the time you have with him, maybe it's not the worst thing.

As far as Kashrut goes, I keep Kosher to a certain extent, i.e., I don't eat pork or shellfish, and I wait an hour and a half between eating meat and dairy. Also, I try to eat only Kosher for Passover food on Passover. An observant Jew likely wouldn't condone my "picking and choosing," but keeping Kosher to this extent has meaning to me. Basically, it makes me feel as a Jew, which is important to me in a way that's difficult to explain. My ancestors undertook to observe certain obligations, and even if I don't keep them perfectly, this still seems like a way to keep the tradition going. Since there are many wonderful foods that are consistent with Kashrut, I don't find not eating pork and shellfish to be too much of a deprivation. On the other hand, because I have non-Jewish and non-observant friends, limiting myself to Kosher restaurants like your friend does would be a deprivation for me. I will say that holidays like Passover and Yom Kippur, where I can't eat what I'd like to, make me appreciate how good I have things during the rest of the year.

As far as atheism goes, you suggest that people "could start to value human life out of compassion for people as they are, not as other creations of a deity." But given my sense of human behavior, I think it's at least likely that an atheistic outlook leads to a Hobbesian "will to power" as that it leads to the kind of humanistic perspective you advocate.

Finally, I don't have an answer to the problem of evil suffering. I prefer to believe that there's a greater plan, and that there's more to "life" than this world, but I can see how other people would regard that as unconvincing and naive. I also think that things like the birth of children, relationships with other people, beauty, and fulfillment in what one does make life worth living, despite the suffering that's inherent in it.

Anyway, I don't mean to convince you to believe in God, but I hope you'll understand why some other reasonably intelligent people do.

Ara:

Aw, for crying out loud.

All this time I thought Arnold was God.

Actually, it's just that Arnold does a mighty convincing impression of God. Especially the crashing, rumbling thunder-and-lightning bits.

NYer:

You wrote that you would "be interested to hear [my]non-fairy tale explanation for how the universe came to exist in the first place."

My non-fairy tale explanation is that whatever makes up the universe has always been there. There is no beginning or end to time.

Furthermore, I think it is at least as valid an explanation for the universe as anything you can come up with. Even if you helped make up a minyan on shabat. And even if you strive to obey all 613 positive and negative mitzvot. Not even hashem will change the laws of physics and chemistry.

Allison:

I know a large percentage of the population thinks prayer is a powerful force. In ancient Egypt, a much larger percentage probably believed that well-prepared linen-wrapped corpses (but lacking their brains and other vital organs) could be brought to life. There are even a lot of Democrats who believe that congressman Gephardt, a true political corpse, can be transformed into a president of the United States. Hope springs eternal in the human breast.

You say I shouldn't temp fate by betting against your divinity. But my fate is death anyway, a destiny to which I was condemned at birth. You seriously believe there are any exceptions to this rule? Go find me someone who truly died and was brought back to life; we'll patent the secret elixir of omnipotence. And die rich, at least.

Kevin D:

You wrote as if you imagine I am some kind of liberal, which would bring peals of laughter from anyone who knows me. I don't even believe in democracy, to say nothing of liberalism. I want to arm every non-felonious citizen of the United States. I want to end most government programs other than defense of our borders, guaranteeing our liberties and furthering interstate commerce. I put property rights above most other values. I do not particularly believe in any right to life. I am nobody's dittohead. I just read what I read and think what I think.

Ara and Paul Burgess:

I only feel like a god now and then after one too many bottles of Point Special, Huber's Bock, or some similar upper midwest cocktail. I understand the gods of the ancient Greeks and Romans got drunk now and then, leched after young nubile godesses, got greedy for power, and all that. So much for omnipotence.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Arnold:

...Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Arnold:

Makes Mt. Olympus sound somewhat like State Street on a Friday or Saturday night.

(Madison-area in-joke :)

Paul, Stefi and I live out westward from Madison, in the town of Cross Plains, to be exact. The only time we get to see State Street on a Friday or Saturday night is when we feel masochistic enough to drive in to see an overpriced art film with the quiche and winers. Then we refresh our memories of what it's like to spend a halfhour looking for a parking space four blocks from the badly-upholstered and crowded little theatre in which we will view the latest and most highly touted of filmschool noir.

When we aren't feeling particularly masochistic, which is most of the time, we do our shopping at Woodman's westside emporium, pick up a case of one or more of Stefi's favorite brews from their adjoining liquor store, head home, and do what comes naturally.

Besides. I'm into heavy-duty (no pun intended) industrial grade weight loss these past couple of months (21 lbs gone already), along with a daily hydrochlorothiazide, zocor and aspirin cocktail. So fried junkfood for me is a dimly remembered bad habit. Which means there isn't much else to do on State Street for them what's too old or attached to cruise for girls.

I don't know much about Mt Olympus, even though we spent some days in Greece once upon a time. We climbed Mt Sinai once, though. No burning bush in sight, except for the brush pile some of the local beduins used for the fire to brew us some early morning coffee.

(It's one impressive mountain, rising more or less straight up from the plain in the southern part of the Sinai peninsula. At its foot stands Santa Katerina monastery. Which I'll tell you about in another post some day, since you're into real Christianity.)

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Ah, my memories of State Street are shaped by the era of the mid 70s through the early 80s, when I was a young punk in the UW-Madison math department, the drinking age was 18, and they used to post Madison police officers outside the doors of The Pub on Friday and Saturday nights.

When I was in grad school in math, I lived in an apartment on Langdon Street, four stories above the KK, so it was no great feat to stagger home from State Street (just one block over) after hitting Rocky Rococo's (the original Rocky Rococo's, just a few doors down from Brown's Book Store) or the Parthenon (I liked a gyros and fries now and then-- always with Pabst Blue Ribbon).

Actually as far as bars on or around State Street, back in those days the preferences of me and my crowd ran in the direction of the KK, the Plaza, Nick's, Gervasi's Black Bear Lounge, the University Club, the Nitty Gritty, or State Street Brats (alias the Brathaus: my own favorite stop after a hard evening of studying differential geometry or algebraic topology).

Or of course there was the Rathskeller in the Memorial Union.

And what was that tavern on the little triangular-shaped wedge of a block across from engineering? My junior year my roommate was a grad student in nuclear engineering from Hong Kong-- some evenings, after studying in his office in those old WWII-era "temporary" engineering buildings, we used to hit that tavern.

Back in those days I could hit Badger Liquor or Casa di Vino on State Street, and pick up a case of Point Special for four bucks. The spring of 1980, when the TAA was out on strike, I spent some of my ample free time (since for those several weeks I wasn't teaching my discussion sections of second-semester calculus) brewing my own beer in a closet in my apartment. "AeroSphinx"-- it was real beer, all right, though I was the only person who could stand to drink it.

I will never forget the usual dialogue I used to hear in the middle of the night, at bar closing time, through the open window of my fourth-floor apartment:

(sound of tinkling glass on sidewalk)

"Arrr, arrr, arrr arrrrh... Broken glass! Broken glass!!"

"Arrrrrr, arrr, arrrrrr... You throw the first punch! Arrrrh, arrrh!"

BTW, Santa Katerina monastery... that's where the Codex Sinaiticus was found, wasn't it?

Arnold Harris,

My non-fairy tale explanation is that whatever makes up the universe has always been there. There is no beginning or end to time.

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but that's all they are. I don't quite understand why you insist on ridiculing other people's beliefs, when you can't prove they're incorrect.

Furthermore, I think it is at least as valid an explanation for the universe as anything you can come up with.

I don't purport to be able to come up with an explanation for how the universe came into existence, but I also don't feel contempt for people who disagree with me about whether God exists.

Peace.

As a non-religious agnostic, it's my observation that certain atheists have an incredibly defensive, at times even angry, view of religious people. One that looks suspiciously defensive to me.

Certain atheists also seem to have an inability to acknowledge that atheists have, over the last century, proven themselves to be as capable of mass-murder and oppression as any of the major world religions.

Marxism was/is a highly rationalized, atheist philosophy and worldview. And it killed about 100 million people over the last 100 years. There have been plenty of non-Communist atheist dictators and oppressors too.

Objectivism purports to be a similarly all-encompassing system of thought which explains everything. The problem being that no two Objectivists seem unable to come to firm agreement on some of the greatest issues of our day--and when they disagree, they are likely to cast aspersions upon each other as not being "true" Objectivists, every bit the same as Marxists tend to do to each other, and religious people tend to do to each other.

In making that observation, I am not trying to attack atheists, but to observe that it is very hard to come up with an example of atheists acting any better than the religious folks they crticizen. On the flip side, the world seems to have something of a shortage of atheist-run battered women's shelters, soup kitchens, or other charities. What there does seem an abundance of is atheists who angrily blame religion for all the world's ills, while being unable to see the ills caused by their fellow atheists. Or, worse, saying that it's "not relevant" what your fellow atheists do.

The fact of the matter is that people gain great happiness and solace from religion. Even if you think it's false, why is it your business to denigrate their beliefs? Maybe they're right and you're wrong. Why not leave it at that? Haven't you better things to do with your time?

Oh, where was my mind last night?

Actually as far as bars on or around State Street, back in those days the preferences of me and my crowd ran in the direction of the KK, the Plaza, Nick's, Gervasi's Black Bear Lounge, the University Club, the Nitty Gritty, or State Street Brats.

D'oh! The University Club is that fancy members-only pseudo-University-of-Chicago-style place on the State Street Mall. I meant the old Wisconsin Club, over on the corner of University Avenue and Lake Street-- one block off State Street. You know, the place with the shuffleboard-bowling machine.

All of which will make no sense whatsoever to anyone not familiar with the Madison (WI) bar scene of 25 years ago.

Actually I thought Jews were the chosen people to bring the light of monotheism into the world. Chosen for that purpose and no other. They did. End of story. The rest is justification and antisemitism. There was nothing much at all about 'the chosen people' for thousands of years, that was a rare libel. With the coming of the modern era and communication it became, especially in the nazi period, a common slander indeed. So common that it acquired the aura of authenticity, 'if so many people are saying it, it must mean something'. Since the vast majority of people are decent human beings and in no way antisemitic, justification became the order of the day. Both by Jews and by their apologists.

There you go.

Actually I thought Jews were the chosen people to bring the light of monotheism into the world. Chosen for that purpose and no other. They did. End of story. The rest is justification and antisemitism. There was nothing much at all about 'the chosen people' for thousands of years, that was a rare libel. With the coming of the modern era and communication it became, especially in the nazi period, a common slander indeed. So common that it acquired the aura of authenticity, 'if so many people are saying it, it must mean something'. Since the vast majority of people are decent human beings and in no way antisemitic, justification became the order of the day. Both by Jews and by their apologists.

There you go.