"Jake,

Boys don't hit girls. I know she's bigger than you. And I know she starts fights between other people. And I know her parents are no damned good. And I know that sometimes she hits you, because she's bigger than you and knows she can get away with it. But you, know, Jake, boys don't hit girls.

But did you at least stomp on the bitch?"

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

"Boys don't hit girls"

Sorry, say instead:

"Boys don't hit girls FIRST."

I'll grant you that, especially at a young age, the male has a definite advantage in hand-to-hand combat over the female, but if the girl is going to take the first swing, she has to full-well expect that a punch in the face might be coming back.

To do otherwise is to subject young boys to being beat up by girls, unable to defend themselves because "they can't hit girls", and that's just not right if the girls have no compunction about taking a swing at the boys.

Dean,

It'll work - it worked with me; my incident was hitting my older sister. Its excellent training - and Derek, boys have to be instructed to not hit and not hit back when it comes to the ladies...

What did you tell actually tell him to do instead? As a "girl" that knows some other girls, let me assure you that if a particularly vicious girl figures out that "this boy won't defend himself against girls" your son is in for Hell on Earth. I've seen that happen at schools all the time. Girls can be bullies just as easily as boys, but "girls" get away with it because we're "delicate" or "fragile" or know how to cry to get out of things. In the past this has been directed at other girls, but its a changing world. I definitely agree with Derek, and am confused by Mark saying boys should be taught not to hit back. Why not? I don't understand just suggesting that boys take it because girls are weak and can't do real damage. Lots of my friends have been plenty damaged by abusive girls. I'm not saying that boys should go around hitting ANYONE first, but its dangerous to not hit back.

Yeah, I have to agree with Derek and Alg about Jake hitting back. Taking the first swing would have brought that conversation from me. Responding to someone taking the first swing is a different matter.

It's a shame that there's not a loving parent having that conversation with Ashleigh:

"Girls don't hit anyone, Ashleigh. I know s/he annoys you and is smaller than you, but no matter how much s/he bugs you, you don't hit them. Period."

Because if her parents told her that, then Jake wouldn't have had to defend himself. And defend himself, he did.

My mother was wont to issue admonitions such as "Boys don't hit girls", and wash-rinse-repeat until we had assented to understanding her enough times. We soundly ignored her.

My father was to be taken most seriously, on the other hand. Here was his take on conflict resolution (or, a Young Mans Primer on Ethical Violence):

• Don't EVER throw the first blow
  
• Having comes to blows means you failed, regardless of the outcome of the fight
  
• If you are male, or the larger of 2 in a fight, you had damned better have witnesses that they threw first, else you're ass is grass
  
• Even if they threw first, if you incited them verbally, your ass is culpable
  
• If you are larger or tougher and can sit and take it, do
  

He was also of the "you tell me why you are being punished, and then choose an appropriate punishment" school of thought. The proper moral reason would have to be given up before you got to pick your punishment. If was all fairly libertarian (aka 'classical liberal') in it's approach. And all delivered calmly and in gentle language appropriate for 6-10 years old.

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the other comments. Boys don't hit girls, period. And that means they don't hit them back, either.

I've had girls (and women) attempt to hit and actually hit me several times in my life, from childhood through adulthood. I've never hit one back. I've certainly forcibly restrained them or pushed them away roughly enough to make my point, but I've never actually hit a female. It's never even crossed my mind.

Maybe it's just where I come from (the deep south) and the old fashioned way I was raised, but those are the rules and values that I was raised with, and those will be the rules and values passed on to my son, who is also named Jake, and just started walking this weekend. :)

Here is my input as Jake's Mom.

First: Jake threw the first and only punch at Ashleigh. That is why Dean gave him the talk.

Second: I have a rule that "normally" Jake respects. Never throw the first punch. Period.

If he is hit first and it doesn't hurt he should push down the attacker. (Girls included)

If he is hit first and it hurts he is to pummel the crap out of the attacker to the point of tears if necessary. If the parents are unwilling to teach their children not to hit - I'll do it for them.

I don't believe in hitting girls either but shoving them hard AFTER they hit you first is OKAY by me. What Jake needs is a sister.
When my brother got harassed by a girl (he wasn't allowed to hit girls either) I stepped up and beat the bitch down. She was 5 years older then me but I was a hellion. Till I have a baby girl - shoving will have to do - as SELF DEFENSE.

Self-defense is a must because I will not be raising no pussy boy.

I will not raise a bully either. So throwing the first punch will get a lecture and no cartoons for a day. I won't spank for hitting offenses because there is no lesson in it. Telling a kid he can't hit and then proceeding to hit him as punishment sends a mixed message.

"Jake, Boys don't hit girls. They pay a bigger girl to hit the girl that hit them. Best to have it happen when you have an alibi." Works like a charm

"Boys don't hit girls" is a sexist statement and it's not true. Boys hit girls all the time, just ask a girl with brothers. In 23 years behind the bar I can't tell you how many times I've seen girls take advantage of that kind of parental conditioning and really kick ass.

You have said one thing and he is going to see another truth in life. Give him something to work with and a way out. Talk about participants, size, strength, the boy/girl thing as history, events leading up to the first punch, optional actions (include punching back) before and after the first punch and the consequences of those actions both good and bad.

This is a wonderful opportunity to teach him how to think and reason unhampered by mores that are no longer universally accepted.

Just my thoughts (my boys are 35 and 39 now)

I agree with Rosemary, the boy has the right to defend himself from an attacker, regardless. It's best if he can restrain the attacker, but if he can't, he's entitled to hit back. But he has to know that there are those who feel that it's always wrong for a boy to hit a girl, even to save his life, so if he doesn't have witnesses, he'd best run for it.

That's right, Jake. You can't hit a girl, but you can rub a girl's nose in the fact that she will ultimately owe her suffrage to a large group of long dead men.

Chris Rock said it best: You can't hit a woman, but you can damn sure shake her! Grab her by the shoulders, grit your teeth, and say, "Woman, if you ever hit me again, I'll kill you."

If you are larger or tougher and can sit and take it, do

Isn't that pretty much the argument for why the United States should never defend its interests anywhere in the world?

I'm sorry, but being smaller and weaker is not, never has been, and never must be, an absolute defense against being punished for starting trouble.

I might tell a boy, "If you are larger or tougher and can sit and take it, then you can walk away from it. But don't you ever be a doormat for someone just because they're smaller and weaker. They should have something going for them and if it can't be size or toughness and it obviously isn't intelligence, then give them experience enough to know that picking fights is wrong NO MATTER WHAT."

My son will be taught not to hit girls.

Period.

I taught my two sons the same thing.

Until my older son, in middle school at the time, was ganged up on by four high school girls who were on a rampage. Only one of the girls even knew who he was.

The oldest was a huge girl - 10th grader and weighed 200 pounds.

They fenced him in while he was outside with two of his friends. They pretended they were just passing by, then pounced.

They beat him to the ground, and he didn't fight back because I had taught him that "boys don't hit girls."

He finally threw a single punch to get away, made his way home to me, where I nursed his injuries.

Witnesses, including an adult, confirmed this story.

I called another pastor and the county sheriff, who was a personal friend. They both agreed that the attack was too serious to overlook.

I filed charges against the big girl, the ringleader, and had her arrested. She was convicted.

In those days my son was slightly built and appeared unintimidating. He was frequently the picked-on kid until high school, when he added height and muscle.

The year before the incident with the girls, another much older and larger kid, a boy, set upon my son and beat him badly, causing real injury with bloodshed. A heating technician working on a house nearby broke the fight up and brought my son home.

All I did then was try to be "pastoral" with the parents, and ask them to pay for replacing my son's glasses. They did very begrudgingly.

Three months later their son doused an autistic child with lighter fluid and set him afire. The child almost died. The assailant is now in the full-time custody of the state.

After all three of these incidents, I told my sons the rules are these:

1. Do not be an aggressor.

2. Never fail to defend yourself whether your attacker is male or female.

3. Your intention in using violence to defend yourself is to make an escape, but do not sacrifice your safety. Go toe to toe if you have to.

4, Make sure anyone who threatens you learns that your father will have them hauled off in handcuffs without hestitation if they commit violence against you. If they persist, tell me and I will tell that to their fathers.

I am darn well serious about this: you fight my children, you fight me. I will not turn the other cheek. And then I will bring the full weight of state law down on the aggressor child.

Since I told my boys that, there has not been even a glimmer of an incident.

BTW, Tennessee law does not require retreat in the face of attack. A victim of attack in this state may immediately defend with force. This according to the judge who convicted my son's attacker.

How about: people shouldn't initiate violence against one another? How's that for a life rule?

I'm sorry, but if a woman initiates violence against me, I'm going to stop her in order to defend myself -- just like any woman should have the right to defend herself against anyone, male or female.

I grew up with some pretty profound physical abuse, Dean, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say it isn't okay to hit girls and it's okay to hit boys. That's just . . . well, it just doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny other than an outmoded form of chivalry.

My Dad beat my Mom. If she'd killed him, I wouldn't have minded. Often, I wanted to kill him myself. And if my Mom had been the batter against my Dad, I would have felt the same way.

My parents also taught me not to throw the first punch at a girl. I can recall only two instances where I had to come to blows with a girl:

1. 8 yrs old, St Louis. Neighbor girl whomps me in the face with an ice ball in the dead of winter. After I shook the ice out of my eyes, I got even, and nailed her with an ice ball from long range smack between the eyes. She never tried that s*** again.

2. 13 yrs old, St Louis. I'm minding my own business in the lunch line when a girl on a dare to "embarrass the geek" sprays me with a huge spritz of perfume. I really saw red on this one and whack her good on the nose. The teacher in the lunch room sends us both to the principal, who makes us apologize to each other. Again, the girl in question and her clique never try that s*** again.

I don't care who you are, boy or girl, I won't throw the first punch. But you mess with me, you had best be prepared to take the consequences.

I'm in italics, McGehee is not:

If you are larger or tougher and can sit and take it, do

Isn't that pretty much the argument for why the United States should never defend its interests anywhere in the world?

I'm sorry, but being smaller and weaker is not, never has been, and never must be, an absolute defense against being punished for starting trouble.

I meant just take it in the interest of your honor and moral compass. Turn the other cheek is an ideal I look up towards, always reserving the right to self-defense.

But I agree with your point, and being smaller (whether a nation or person) is never justification for initiating violence.

Dean: I wasn't meaning to impinge the ideal you were imparting to your son, and rosemary's clarifications of her views further mesh with my own. I was more than anything wanting to share the technique that my father used with success with myself: requiring that you explain what you did wrong in your own words after he'd told you what it was and why, rather than repetitiously stating an imperative, and merely requiring assent. And for the record I've never struck a woman myself, although I did throw a bar of soap at my step sister once.

Donald: Amen to that. Notice of intent to pursue legal action, when you actually know what you're talking about, can be mighty effective at times in detering idiots. Nice to see that your state appears to have sane self-defense laws. AZ's are fairly sane too.

Johk K.: Yes, the non-initiation principle is about as short as one can condense the essential morallity of the situation, no?

I picked up my daughter from pre-school and asked her if she'd been a good girl.

Allison: No.

Me: What did you do that was bad?

Allison; I hit Brian.

Me: That's bad.

Allison: It was an accident.

Me: Oh, well, if it was an accident . . .

Allison: I meant to hit Jason but he ducked so I hit Brian.

As it turned out, there'd been a battle royal between the boys and girls for control of a play structure. I told her not to go around hitting people. She said the teacher had made the same point.

As far as I know, that was her last punch-up. But I did see her, on a dare, kiss a boy in the line to get into the first grade class. He punched her. She didn't respond at all, apparently feeling that he was within his rights to retaliate.

I grew up in a house with a father who was an alcoholic, though never abusive to my knowledge. My mother never would have tolerated it and did divorce him when I was about five.

I was picked on from time-to-time by both boys and girls and I generally ignored it. It was rare. I never responded with violence, even when this one guy put me in a most uncomfortable choke hold in 9th grade. I simply avoided him from then on and never had any additional problems.

The concern about abusive behavior being passed from one generation to the next is legitimate, but not written in stone. I inherited alcoholism from my father -- been sober 7.5 years, since the age of 27 -- and fortunately did not drag a wife and children through the mess with me. I think there is more of a genetic component to alcoholism, though, than with spousal abuse -- it does cut both ways and is not limited to men abusing women.

The only moral approach has already been stated: never initiate violence. If someone initiates violence against you, your response should be situational. I personally like the idea that you use enough violence, if needed, to insure your own safety and take it to the authorities.

My two cents.

Good work Dean. I taught my children, 2 boys and a girl not to put their hands on other people or their stuff unless you are invited too. Never ever throw the first punch, and don't put your mouth in a position your fists have to defend you. Walk away, because after all, who really cares. Someone who resorts to violence has lost all their mind, therefore, you've already won.

Then if a male or males come after you, take them down. Never hit a girl.

My 2 cents:

I broke my older sisters nose with a punch after she placed a hot iron on the bottom of my foot. Dad punished her, I went out to play, albeit with a limp.

Many years later, I saw a guy beating the crap out of a girl in the middle of the street near my apartment. I mean she was getting a serious ass kcking. So I go and start beating the crap out of him and you know what happened? The girl got up from the pavement and started beating the crap out of me. How does one explain that?

It was the 'boys don't hit girls' instruction that turned me into a feminist (old-style) at age 8. My brother and I had gotten into a fight for some reason. If I recall, he threw the first punch. (I was older.) I had him down and was pummeling him, with him attempting to hit back. My mother came in and yelled at him for hitting a girl. While I was obviously beating him up.

Even at that age, I knew unfairness when I heard it. And I told her so. From that day on, I actively examined the logic of anything my mother said -- and my brother and I never fought again. I wouldn't fight him because he would have gotten in trouble for defending himself, and I was never a bully. He wouldn't fight me because he knew I could beat him up. ;)

Terrific, Dean & Rosemary!

Of course boys cannot hit girls. Defending themselves is another matter.

Kathy, but you act as if that is some new revelation. Women knew, until the last 50 years, that the prohibition of violence against women required them to do their part. I think it is interesting that you questioned your mother's motives when, in fact, you learned the exact lesson she was trying to teach you.

Fairness? What has that got to do with anything? Men are bigger than women. Is that fair? Even if they aren't always physically bigger, their muscle mass will generally make them stronger.

Boys do not hit girls and girls do not put boys in a position where they will be punished for something they did. You figured that out. It wasn't some new thing.

Women have power in the no hitting girls rule. Women have to exercise that power with extreme caution.

For all of you criticizing Dean for not discussing every possible shade of grey with his son...remember the kid is SIX ok? He'll need to wait until he's at least 8 or 9 before he takes up tort law, the cultural history of sex relations, and evolutionary biology! ;)

My dad also taught me never to hit a woman. The only available option to me was restraint and escape. The only time I have ever had to use that tactic was during a mildly psychotic episode with a female family member.

As for fighting males, my dad's rules were very similar to some mentioned above:

1. Never fight;
2. If you must fight, make sure that you have witnesses, because with your size, you will ALWAYS be perceived as being the aggressor. (Truer words were never spoken...);
3. Never Fight;
Finally,
4. If you must fight, start out like hell and get worse!

This whole subject hits close to home with me. As I pointed out, with my size (by 7th grade, I was about 5'11" and 200 lbs.) I was never seen as the victim in a fight. Never mind that as the biggest kid in my class, I was often a target for people who wanted to enhance their image as a tough guy. I often endured months of taunting, only to wind up in trouble when I had finally had enough. However, if and when I have kids, they will be taught these same standards.

Self-defense (and the defense of your family) is the only accaptable deviation - and then only to the degree necessary to end the threat. At this point in my life, I would expect that the need for physical violence is over. If I ever feel the need to fight again, it will definitely be a life or death situation - at which point, male or female, only one rule applies:

Kill or be killed! (edited for content!)

Dean,

Are you really certain you want to ask thousands of people -- most of whom you shall never meet face to face -- for advice on how to raise your son and under what circumstances you will discipline him? Doesn't this give you the feelling (maybe just a little) of acting out the role of those helpless creatures who call into Dr Laura Schlesinger's radio talk show, presumably for purposes of getting lectured and even scolded on nationally syndicated radio?

There's a time for sensitivity and a time for beer. Hoepfully the latter more frequently than the former.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

My rule, learnt the hard way is this : never initiate an attack, but, if attacked, kick A**, and take names later!!!!!!!!

A running joke in this summer's best movie seeks to get around a strict interpretation of the Pirates Code: "Actually, they're more like guidelines."

I've noticed that several people here have tried to expound a universal rule that applies to all people in all situations. Some have enumerated rather lengthy and complicated rules.

As a guideline, "gentlemen don't hit ladies" is an admirable ethic to teach children. But, as a number of people have pointed to, there seem to be certain circumstances under which such a code is unfair, illogical, or counter-productive.

Also, Dean titled this post "A Difficult Conversation," and not "monologue" or "lecture." If your goal is just to lay down the law, so to speak, then you probably feel justified in doing so. (Granted, there are some things an adult just TELLS a child.)

But if you want the child truly to adopt your sage advice, to internalize and assimilate this with his or her own moral philosophy and make it last over a lifetime, then a real conversation between the adult and the child must take place. Some of the anecdotes revealed here show that just such conversations occurred between parents and children. What makes such a conversation difficult for some parents is having the child question assumptions, especially in regards to fairness and logic.

Difficult indeed.

I was raised with the "hitting girls is forbidden" rule with 5 sisters. So, I learned to get along with girls no matter how many times they hit me. We also had the "never hit first or second" rule. As a result, I avoided many fights by not hitting first or second. I also was forced to try and find out why someone hit me before I struck back. If they hit me again, coming home a loser was not an option.

Many fights were avoided. I was not labelled a coward. I never felt humiliated. And I felt no guilt over kicking someone's ass after being hit 3 times unprovoked and having offered to talk about it.

I don't recall either of my parents ever coming out and saying 'don't hit girls', it kind of came naturally. To this day, I'm almost pathologically against men hitting women. If you hit any woman, your wife, mother, sister, or girlfriend in front of me, I will kick your ass. I've gotten in trouble for my Dudley Doright crap, and some people say it's none of my business - but unless the couple is wearing S&M outfits, I'm fully confident that the woman doesn't in fact want to have her nose punhced in by someone twice her size.

And just standing idly by would be tantamount to giving that bastard my blessing, and I will not do that.

Oh, and Chad - your comment was out of line. I don't know you enough to know whether to call you a prick or not, but keep other people's six-year-old children out of snide comments if you can help it.

I think for the first lesson(s) "don't hit a girl. Period." is the right one. Donald's older exception is important -- and why I'm a little glad to be in Slovakia instead of the US with two boys & a daughter (7, 6, 5).

I'm trying more the "don't hit first." But my skinny, smart, nice sons both provoke, and are provoked, too easily.

I've accepted spanking as acceptable discipline, but I see (maybe live) the difficulty of teaching non-violent responses to both verbal and minor violent (poking) provocations.

I'm also trying to focus on letting them swat the hands of somebody who is hitting them (like the youngest, the daughter).

Very relevant discussion.

What about "boys don't hit anyone when they get frustrated?"

I guess it's OK to hit boys, though.

I can only imagine how hard your conversation with your young 6 year old son was dean. You gave us a complete understanding of what you were going through to give your son the right answer. I could tell you really cared how you answered Jacob and just how important it was.
You know something, my father gave my brother the very same advice at about Jacobs age. He was told he was never to hit a girl or his sister's and if he did, he would have hell to pay. I remembered that because my brother had just shoved me out of a play house we had built.
My dad went on to say that girls have tender spirits and if they are hit, it can stay with them for a lifetime.
Going forward, now I had a son and he was having trouble with an awful bully of a girl at school that constantly triped him, opened his lunch box & threw the food on the ground while stomping on it. He would get so mad and want to hit her, but you can guess what I had told him. She kicked him one time while he was picking up his food.
Well, that night he came home furious and said, " Mom, I just don't know how I can turn the other cheek, or not hit her, I just can't take it anymore!!!!!"
I sat there feeling so bad and had a huge lump in my throat. Boy, did I fight the tears on this, he was just 6&1/2 yrs old. Well son, well stop this somehow, I will go talk to your teacher. NO MOM that will embarress me. I am going to get her and she will never do it again!
He asked me if he could get some things out or the kitchen for his lunch because he was making a special one. Well sure I said, do you need help?nope Mom.
I took him to school and he had a big smile on his face. He had his luch box and a sack tucked under his jacket.
Oh man, did he get her good! When she grabbed his lunch box all kinds of loud bangs came out of that box, can openers, a pot lid, forks and spoons & stuff jam packed that made a huge noise and went all over the room. All the kids started laughing at her! Teacher made her pick it all up.
Dean I know this was quite a long story but I think it also shows you how smart our young children can be when we teach them there are other ways than hitting, I am in my early 50's and I raised my boys to never hit a girl and my daughter who is 33 feels the same as you, and that is how she is raising her two boys. I think many things in eras should stay the same. It doesn't matter if it is 1920 0r 2020. Movies make women out to be so incredibly super hero strong to take on men. Oops, now, now, I am not trying to say we can't hold our own or hold a lot of great jobs that a lot of men can, goodness no No, I just have always held in my heart those tender words my father said about a womans spirit. When a man hits a woman he is also breaking her spirit.
I think you had a nice post by bring this post up. Your reader enjoy knowing you as a person and I like your stand you are taking with your son.

If my sisters attacked me when I was little (I have a sister two years younger than me and two four years younger), I was allowed to use what might be termed a "proportional response" in order to defend myself and hopefully to teach them the stupidity of messing with someone bigger than them. In no circumstance would I ever have been allowed to hit a girl other than my sisters.

So long as weapons aren't involved, men should never, ever, ever hit a girl for any reason. You can restrain or even push (shove) them, but never hit.

Dean, keep up the good work.

My son will be taught not to hit girls. Period.

good man. i would've said boys don't hit girls, unless she kicks you in the nuts. just because girls think they can do that with impunity, and it sucks. but that's your call. besides, he's much more likely to send a bully girl home crying by telling her she needs to take a shower this week.

i've only ever beaten two guys unconscious, and both times, it was because they punched girls. and i hated one of those girls.