Hey, Dean;

Weren't you the one feeding me a recent line of catpoop about how Indonesia was such an outstanding example of "democracy" in action in the islamic world?

(Yeah, a real outstanding example, presumably of what we want to see in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and maybe Yasser Arafat's little al-Qaeda City in Gaza.)

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Oh, Christ on a crutch, Arnold. Do you use Tim McVeigh as proof that America isn't ready for democracy?

You remind me of the fools who said of Shay's Rebellion that this was proof that America's democratic experiment was clearly doomed.

Dean,

1) I use Tim McVeigh as proof that in America, lawyers, whose profession fundmentally is organized and legalized chicanery, are the only citizens who can get away with conspiracies. And in this country, it is more frequently the government that conspires against its own citizens, than the other way around.

2) Shay's Rebellion was proof only of two facts. First, that Americans who took up arms 11 years earlier to overthrow a colonial government because of taxation without representation, would pick up their muskets again when a successor government of rich Virginia planters and Philadelphia businessmen fucked them over in regard to taxation, worthless currency and corrupt judges. Second, that the new government lacked the centralized military power to enforce organized theft by its tax collectors.

3) In any case, America was not a democratic experiment at all, but an experiment in the establishment of a constitutional republic with strictly limited government, balance of powers among the branches of government, defined power relationships between the central and provincial governments, and defined liberties of individual citizens.

Now you show me where such republics as described by the United States Constitution exist in any islamic culture. I'm talking about real liberty, respect for property rights, no government establishment of religion, etc, etc, but within the framework of islamic sharia. There is no such thing.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Well, "no government establishment of a religion" is damned hard to find anywhere, including most of Europe.

As for not being a democracy but a constitutionally limited Republic: modern usage of the word "democracy" generally encompasses such distinctions in my experience, and that's what I want to see in Iraq.

But anyway, as I've said: the Turks have most of the items on your checklist. They've still got a military arm that has to put down religious fanatics, but they're stable. Despite all the handwringing, Indonesia has not collapsed yet, and we're very nearly done in Bosnia.

So let us see what we shall see. The Indonesians got a LOT more serious about helping us in the war on terror after Bali, and their government is wrestling now with a radical Muslim separatist group. Which looks to me like a society in transition, not a society doomed to destruction.

200 years is the blink of an eye in historical terms, ya know.

One thing more.

"Democracy" isn't a status you can write up in a governing document and enforce.

It's a state of mind among the population of a given country. Meaning that everyone is prepared to play a small but measurable role in selecting a government, defending it from enemies foreign and domestic and paying for its programs on some more or less equitable and reasonable basis.

But in our country today, only about half the eligible voters take part in big elections and a much smaller number in little elections. The military draft ended because everyone wants someone else's kid to defend the country, if they want to defend it at all. And the smart folks quickly learn how to practice tax avoidance (which is a sound business policy, in contrast to tax evasion, which is a felony).

Democracy? Bah, humbug.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

Well, all i was saying was how pissed off I was that the little ba*stard was blaming the bombings on the Americans and Jewish people. Also the fact that he continually says how proud his is of his acheivements, killing 88 Australians.

Just like Bin Ladin, I hope he gets whats coming to him...

Arnold,

I agree with Dean on this one, Indonesia was willing to share and co-operate with us Aussies on the Bali case, dispite their history with us. They are still stable, dispite sections/islands wanting to seperate from them (ie: East Timor).

Also, with Iraq.... there is no such thing as a shake and bake fix. Things take time to work, and due to the way humans live and how improvements continually need to be made everyday to continue a stable life for all, democracy has shown that it is the most stable form of government.

It gives the majority of the people what they need to survive on each issue, so unless your a bitter old fool and are negative about everything, you'll win half the time and lose the other.

Also: name two TRUE democratic governments that have waged war upon each other.

Also, Also: The longest, unprotected land border in the world of two neighbouring countries is held by America and Canada - both democratic!

:)

No country can eliminate all the whack-jobs. The best a society can do is assure the nuts don’t run the show. Look at Palestine, perfect example of lunatics running the asylum. In free societies, sane people can keep the nuts in check easily: point and laugh. (Crazy people hate that.)

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