Well, at least they learned not to let so many police take the same day off (especially a predictable one like that one, I'm sure the media reported on how many police took it off last year). They learned it the hard way, but they did learn it, I hope.
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Perhaps not Dean. Every terrorist attack within an Arab nation is going to make some more people there question the entire use of terrorism as a political tool.
More wishful thinking once again about Arab responses to their own terrorists, David.
It does not work that way in Morocco any more than it does in Saudi Arabia, Yeman or Egypt. The timing and targets of these suicide bombing attacks are not at all random. They are carefully selected and approved by the al-Qaeda network, which can function just as well even if Osama bin Laden is dead. The cadre has a large and probably growing army of human bombs, each awaiting his -- and sometimes her -- opportunity to die in a perhaps spectacular action that they are told furthers the cause of militant Wahabbi islamism and that they are assured will carry them direct to paradise.
As long as al-Qaeda can produce arrange for single or mass suicide bomb attacks at times and places of their own choosing, they are saying to the established and recognized government of any such country:
"You see, we can kill your Americans, Europeans, Israelis, Australians, Japanese -- anybody whom you or their governments think are protected -- whenever and wherever we choose. We know as well as you do that the power to govern is based precisely on the power to control who exercises violence in your kingom or commonwealth. We have proven to you time and again that -- because of us -- you do not in fact have a monopoly over the exercize of violence in your state."
"Therefore, since you cannot crush us, we in fact share power with you. Moreover, when islamism grows strong enough, we will sweep you away and rule without you. In the meantime, if you antagonize us unduly, we will reach out and kill you. Or your families. Right in the middle of your protected lives, in the protected schools your children attend, in the protected neighborhoods in which you live. After all: How can you permanently protect anyone against an army that seeks to commit suicide and take you with them?"
This is an unanswerable statement that, in one form or another, is sweeping the Arab and muslim world. You can plainly see that Hamas and Islamic Jihad independently operate in Gaza and the West Bank, right within sight of the so-called Palestine Authority leaders, and in any showdown, will in fact win. So do not waste your time imagining -- even for a split second -- that the use of terrorism as a political tool is not one of the most profoundly successful such tools in human history.
It might be useful for you, David, to spend some time studying the times of the hashashin of Alamut (yes, it is from whence the modern word "assassin" arose). This order of drugged killers was feared by every Arab and muslim government within their reach in the Middle East from the 11th-13th centuries, until, defending their mountain stronghold, the met their match in the form of a ferocious, grim and well-trained Mongol army that could neither by bought off nor frightened away. History frequently repeats itself, and the Hashashin are back in our world.
My own perspective is that the only way to stop these people is to destroy their stronghold. But that stronghold is not an interconnected set of mountain caves in eastern Afghanistan. It is a city. A holy city. The holy city of Mecca. The center of their faith and all that it represents to them.
Would the threat of such an action alone be enough to deter the homicide/suicide religion? This question was carefully thought out by the American military and civil planners who made the decision to drop the first two atomic bombs on Japanese cities in August 1945, in order to end World War II. In the end, Groves, Stimson, Marshall, Byrnes, Oppenheimer, Truman and the others decided that threats would not be believed, that results of a demonstration of the new bomb could backfire. One course of action, and one alone would have the expected results. That is exactly what the United States did.
The time may well come when this country must face a similar choice, one that may well require the most ruthless decision in the history of this country. Under such circumstances, will our leadership be sufficiently implacable to carry out such an act?
And given the opportunity and availability of one or more smuggled nuclear weapons, will the new Arab hashashin hesitate for even a moment from destroying one or more of our great centers of population, national administration and commerce and industry?
So, should we do the same as in Japan, where we deliberately spared Kyoto, as it is the largest Japanese religious center?
In other words, spare Mecca and Medina, but nuke various capitals of Islamic countries?
I'm asking seriously, as I believe that the Prophet's example of converting at the point of the sword set loose a trend in Islam that very well might only be blunted with large scale nuclear war.
I'm familiar with the hashishim Arnold, those are indeed good points. Damned optimism of mine getting in the way of my brain again.
Oh, and did you get that email I sent the other day Arnold?
Oh, and would nuking Mecca break the back of Islam any more than tearing down the Temple multiple times destroyed Judaism?
Not that Arab and Jewish culture are comparable in many ways, but before Islam the children of Ishmael were never united. Will that be undone by destroying the holy cities of Mecca and Medina?
1) I would rather destroy nothing at all, but keep all possibilities open as options if we cannot get the Arab power elites to eliminate their extended family enterprise suicide/homocide gangs.
As for target selection, I am neither an experienced military strategist (I was just a low-ranking private and PFC in the US Army at the tail end of a now-forgotten war fought more than 50 years ago), nor a antropological psychologist.
I would hope that if these people knew that the United States would, in response to a serious attack against an American city, target one of their great centers for certain destruction, then they would terminate their provocations. But nothing we have done to date seems to have gotten their attention.
But if we really wanted to get nasty with them, at only limited cost in human life and certainly no mass destruction, we could openly encourage the Israelis to expel the Arabs, set up huge new blocks of Jewish communities, and let them all know this was direct retribution for their terrorism.
This would involve all the Arabs residing in Judea, Samaria, and possibly the eastern part of Jerusalem. The only ones excepted would be those willing to provide a documented guarantee of their intention to live in peace with the Israelis, on pain of instant expulsion for those who broke their parole. I would start with the UN administered refugee camps and work outward from there.
The Kingdom of Jordan already is the long-standing de facto Palestine state and it has been since 1948. About two-thirds of the Arabs living east of the Jordan River as "Palestinians" (as opposed to those who lived there before 1958, as if this were a meaningful decision). This includes about two-thirds of the government ministers, the parliament, etc. Even the queen is "Palestinian".
The more I write about this idea, the better it sounds as something that could set the stage for real peace some day. Because that is certainly not going to happen while a population jointly ruled by the Palestine Authority, Islamic Jihad and Hamas resides as little as five miles from Israel's major population centers and routinely sends in suicide/homicide bombers dressed to look like Jewish yeshiva "bocherim" (religious students) but with belts of Semtex strapped around their waists.
A hard-as-steel policy of population transfer that helps deter future terrorism bears looking into. And it sure beats the thermonuclear destruction of their holy cities, if that can be accomplished.
And if that were insuffient to get their attention, I am sure the power of the United States could be used to extend the state of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates, which, I read, were the borders promised them in the Bible. For whatever that is worth.
I am not at all reluctant to use mass population expulsions. The allies did this to Germany at the end of World War II. That sure as hell got their attention. Permanently. Ask anybody if they still remember where East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, Danzig and the Sudetenland were located before 1945.
2) I haven't forgotten your direct email. I'll respond as soon as I finish re-researching Bernard de Voto's history of the pioneer Mormons who crossed the country under Brigham Young, fought the "pukes" along the way, set up Deseret, and built the great state of Utah.
I certainly am sorry to hear about your apparently unsatisfactory relationships with your own Mormon family, and I hope you can and shall all reconcile one day.
And no, I am not a member of the LDS. But I see them as the only major religious faith among those practiced by European-Americans that was totally born, nurtured and came to full development on the shores of our part of the new world. That should count for something.
Arnold,
I may have to eat my words in a month or two, but I don't call a couple of suicide bombings (the first major attacks atributable to Al Qaeda in a long time) much of well-trained, professional network, especially when you consider the locale. Where are the attacks in Asia, Europe, or America? One would think even a small attack (say one or two dozen dead) on American soil would be of much greater value than anything executed in North Africa or the Mid-East.
Oh, the serpent still has a tooth or two left, but most of the fangs have been pulled. They have fewer members, less money, nearly no place to hide and train, and they're on the run.
The trick now -to use a military concept- is to maintain pursuit, and keep an unrelenting pressure on them. Don't give them even a single day to catch their breath.
let us begin by facing reality. We are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Our own officials tell us that we can presume Muslim Terrorists intend to strike against the US civilian population soon. Where , with what, and when, we can only guess. Can we have faith in our officials to act to prevent this, when they are bending over backwards to assure us that "Islam is a religion of Peace"?
Allow me to suggest the following method of limiting possible acts of terror by so called "I am a friendly Muslim" immigrants, and Nation of Islam members, who after Minister Farrakhan’s recent speech in Los Angeles, must also be considered a high level threat.
First let me say that these measures should apply to ALL Muslim immigrants from any country, but particularly from high-level threat countries (Iran, Iraq, Egypt, the UAE, so called Palestinians, Sudan, Egypt, the Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) People who claim to not be practicing Muslims but who still bear Muslim names (Mohammed, Chalid, Mahmud, etc. and the female equivalent names) must all be considered suspect and dangerous.
Their children , even if born in the US, must also be considered to be threats. Note that at least one of the Bin Laden terrorists planning to blow up US tourists in Jordan was a US citizen.
Some of you may remember a B movie featuring Rutger Hauer as a prisoner in a hi-technology prison of the future. The prison was able to function with very few guards. It did so be having all the inmates wear radio controlled neck bracelets filled with explosives. If any inmate attempted to escape, or attempted to attack prison personnel, the bracelet would be detonated by remote control and the unruly prisoner would have their head blown off.
Henceforth ALL Muslim Arab and Iranian students, in addition to the other potential threats (mentioned above) should be required to wear an explosive neck bracelet at all times.
Monitoring stations should be set up nationwide. Should any of the bracelet wearers mutter or even breathe their typical terrorist invective ( especially exclamations of "Allah Akbar!", which is what the terrorist pilots shouted before smashing their hijacked planes into our cities) their heads should immediately be blown off.
Every neck bracelet should feature a microphone that is turned on 24 hours. If any of the wearers makes any attempt to speak in coded language, to make any threats on the US or its citizens, to attack or question US policy, or to contact known terrorists or their associates, the explosives should be detonated.
Any attempt to disable the microphone or the bracelet itself , or the bracelet's tracking mechanism, should be met with an immediate detonation.
Any necklace wearer who leaves his designated area without explanation, or any necklace wearer who violates curfew, should at minimum receive a severe electic shock that will disable them and keep them from pursuing any terrorist objective.
All neck bracelets should be equipped with sensors for gunpowder and other types of explosives, so if any bracelet wearer should come anywhere near a firearm, or bomb they intend to use or make themselves into a "martyr" with, their intentions should be frustrated.
All Muslims in the US and Western Europe and our Allies (Mexico and Canada) must be satellite tracked and monitored at all times.
Failure to speak cleare and comprehensibe English (since we regrettably do not have enough Arabic or Farsi speakers to monitor them all effectively , at least not at this time) should be met with a series of severe electric shocks. Continued failure to speak in clear and comprehensible English will be met with having the offender's head blown off.
I believe these modest measures will be a great step forward in preventing further acts of terrorism. Any Arab Muslim, Pakistani, or Iranian potential immigrant or tourist should be made aware that wearing the bracelet is a mandatory condition for visiting the US or its allies.
Well, at least they learned not to let so many police take the same day off (especially a predictable one like that one, I'm sure the media reported on how many police took it off last year). They learned it the hard way, but they did learn it, I hope.
"Among the targets hit were those representing Belgian, Spanish and Jewish interests."
Belgium? The country who is going to try Gen. Franks for war crimes? What am I missing? Perhaps just a reflexive hit against any Western country.
...or maybe they just hate chocolate.
==================================================
Webby Awards voting ends 5/23/03. Write in Dean's World for Best Personal Site. Register here & vote.
==================================================
Perhaps not Dean. Every terrorist attack within an Arab nation is going to make some more people there question the entire use of terrorism as a political tool.
More wishful thinking once again about Arab responses to their own terrorists, David.
It does not work that way in Morocco any more than it does in Saudi Arabia, Yeman or Egypt. The timing and targets of these suicide bombing attacks are not at all random. They are carefully selected and approved by the al-Qaeda network, which can function just as well even if Osama bin Laden is dead. The cadre has a large and probably growing army of human bombs, each awaiting his -- and sometimes her -- opportunity to die in a perhaps spectacular action that they are told furthers the cause of militant Wahabbi islamism and that they are assured will carry them direct to paradise.
As long as al-Qaeda can produce arrange for single or mass suicide bomb attacks at times and places of their own choosing, they are saying to the established and recognized government of any such country:
"You see, we can kill your Americans, Europeans, Israelis, Australians, Japanese -- anybody whom you or their governments think are protected -- whenever and wherever we choose. We know as well as you do that the power to govern is based precisely on the power to control who exercises violence in your kingom or commonwealth. We have proven to you time and again that -- because of us -- you do not in fact have a monopoly over the exercize of violence in your state."
"Therefore, since you cannot crush us, we in fact share power with you. Moreover, when islamism grows strong enough, we will sweep you away and rule without you. In the meantime, if you antagonize us unduly, we will reach out and kill you. Or your families. Right in the middle of your protected lives, in the protected schools your children attend, in the protected neighborhoods in which you live. After all: How can you permanently protect anyone against an army that seeks to commit suicide and take you with them?"
This is an unanswerable statement that, in one form or another, is sweeping the Arab and muslim world. You can plainly see that Hamas and Islamic Jihad independently operate in Gaza and the West Bank, right within sight of the so-called Palestine Authority leaders, and in any showdown, will in fact win. So do not waste your time imagining -- even for a split second -- that the use of terrorism as a political tool is not one of the most profoundly successful such tools in human history.
It might be useful for you, David, to spend some time studying the times of the hashashin of Alamut (yes, it is from whence the modern word "assassin" arose). This order of drugged killers was feared by every Arab and muslim government within their reach in the Middle East from the 11th-13th centuries, until, defending their mountain stronghold, the met their match in the form of a ferocious, grim and well-trained Mongol army that could neither by bought off nor frightened away. History frequently repeats itself, and the Hashashin are back in our world.
My own perspective is that the only way to stop these people is to destroy their stronghold. But that stronghold is not an interconnected set of mountain caves in eastern Afghanistan. It is a city. A holy city. The holy city of Mecca. The center of their faith and all that it represents to them.
Would the threat of such an action alone be enough to deter the homicide/suicide religion? This question was carefully thought out by the American military and civil planners who made the decision to drop the first two atomic bombs on Japanese cities in August 1945, in order to end World War II. In the end, Groves, Stimson, Marshall, Byrnes, Oppenheimer, Truman and the others decided that threats would not be believed, that results of a demonstration of the new bomb could backfire. One course of action, and one alone would have the expected results. That is exactly what the United States did.
The time may well come when this country must face a similar choice, one that may well require the most ruthless decision in the history of this country. Under such circumstances, will our leadership be sufficiently implacable to carry out such an act?
And given the opportunity and availability of one or more smuggled nuclear weapons, will the new Arab hashashin hesitate for even a moment from destroying one or more of our great centers of population, national administration and commerce and industry?
Arnold Harris
So, should we do the same as in Japan, where we deliberately spared Kyoto, as it is the largest Japanese religious center?
In other words, spare Mecca and Medina, but nuke various capitals of Islamic countries?
I'm asking seriously, as I believe that the Prophet's example of converting at the point of the sword set loose a trend in Islam that very well might only be blunted with large scale nuclear war.
I'm familiar with the hashishim Arnold, those are indeed good points. Damned optimism of mine getting in the way of my brain again.
Oh, and did you get that email I sent the other day Arnold?
Oh, and would nuking Mecca break the back of Islam any more than tearing down the Temple multiple times destroyed Judaism?
Not that Arab and Jewish culture are comparable in many ways, but before Islam the children of Ishmael were never united. Will that be undone by destroying the holy cities of Mecca and Medina?
David,
1) I would rather destroy nothing at all, but keep all possibilities open as options if we cannot get the Arab power elites to eliminate their extended family enterprise suicide/homocide gangs.
As for target selection, I am neither an experienced military strategist (I was just a low-ranking private and PFC in the US Army at the tail end of a now-forgotten war fought more than 50 years ago), nor a antropological psychologist.
I would hope that if these people knew that the United States would, in response to a serious attack against an American city, target one of their great centers for certain destruction, then they would terminate their provocations. But nothing we have done to date seems to have gotten their attention.
But if we really wanted to get nasty with them, at only limited cost in human life and certainly no mass destruction, we could openly encourage the Israelis to expel the Arabs, set up huge new blocks of Jewish communities, and let them all know this was direct retribution for their terrorism.
This would involve all the Arabs residing in Judea, Samaria, and possibly the eastern part of Jerusalem. The only ones excepted would be those willing to provide a documented guarantee of their intention to live in peace with the Israelis, on pain of instant expulsion for those who broke their parole. I would start with the UN administered refugee camps and work outward from there.
The Kingdom of Jordan already is the long-standing de facto Palestine state and it has been since 1948. About two-thirds of the Arabs living east of the Jordan River as "Palestinians" (as opposed to those who lived there before 1958, as if this were a meaningful decision). This includes about two-thirds of the government ministers, the parliament, etc. Even the queen is "Palestinian".
The more I write about this idea, the better it sounds as something that could set the stage for real peace some day. Because that is certainly not going to happen while a population jointly ruled by the Palestine Authority, Islamic Jihad and Hamas resides as little as five miles from Israel's major population centers and routinely sends in suicide/homicide bombers dressed to look like Jewish yeshiva "bocherim" (religious students) but with belts of Semtex strapped around their waists.
A hard-as-steel policy of population transfer that helps deter future terrorism bears looking into. And it sure beats the thermonuclear destruction of their holy cities, if that can be accomplished.
And if that were insuffient to get their attention, I am sure the power of the United States could be used to extend the state of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates, which, I read, were the borders promised them in the Bible. For whatever that is worth.
I am not at all reluctant to use mass population expulsions. The allies did this to Germany at the end of World War II. That sure as hell got their attention. Permanently. Ask anybody if they still remember where East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, Danzig and the Sudetenland were located before 1945.
2) I haven't forgotten your direct email. I'll respond as soon as I finish re-researching Bernard de Voto's history of the pioneer Mormons who crossed the country under Brigham Young, fought the "pukes" along the way, set up Deseret, and built the great state of Utah.
I certainly am sorry to hear about your apparently unsatisfactory relationships with your own Mormon family, and I hope you can and shall all reconcile one day.
And no, I am not a member of the LDS. But I see them as the only major religious faith among those practiced by European-Americans that was totally born, nurtured and came to full development on the shores of our part of the new world. That should count for something.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Arnold,
I may have to eat my words in a month or two, but I don't call a couple of suicide bombings (the first major attacks atributable to Al Qaeda in a long time) much of well-trained, professional network, especially when you consider the locale. Where are the attacks in Asia, Europe, or America? One would think even a small attack (say one or two dozen dead) on American soil would be of much greater value than anything executed in North Africa or the Mid-East.
Oh, the serpent still has a tooth or two left, but most of the fangs have been pulled. They have fewer members, less money, nearly no place to hide and train, and they're on the run.
The trick now -to use a military concept- is to maintain pursuit, and keep an unrelenting pressure on them. Don't give them even a single day to catch their breath.
repost from 9/11 board
let us begin by facing reality. We are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Our own officials tell us that we can presume Muslim Terrorists intend to strike against the US civilian population soon. Where , with what, and when, we can only guess. Can we have faith in our officials to act to prevent this, when they are bending over backwards to assure us that "Islam is a religion of Peace"?
Allow me to suggest the following method of limiting possible acts of terror by so called "I am a friendly Muslim" immigrants, and Nation of Islam members, who after Minister Farrakhan’s recent speech in Los Angeles, must also be considered a high level threat.
First let me say that these measures should apply to ALL Muslim immigrants from any country, but particularly from high-level threat countries (Iran, Iraq, Egypt, the UAE, so called Palestinians, Sudan, Egypt, the Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) People who claim to not be practicing Muslims but who still bear Muslim names (Mohammed, Chalid, Mahmud, etc. and the female equivalent names) must all be considered suspect and dangerous.
Their children , even if born in the US, must also be considered to be threats. Note that at least one of the Bin Laden terrorists planning to blow up US tourists in Jordan was a US citizen.
Some of you may remember a B movie featuring Rutger Hauer as a prisoner in a hi-technology prison of the future. The prison was able to function with very few guards. It did so be having all the inmates wear radio controlled neck bracelets filled with explosives. If any inmate attempted to escape, or attempted to attack prison personnel, the bracelet would be detonated by remote control and the unruly prisoner would have their head blown off.
Henceforth ALL Muslim Arab and Iranian students, in addition to the other potential threats (mentioned above) should be required to wear an explosive neck bracelet at all times.
Monitoring stations should be set up nationwide. Should any of the bracelet wearers mutter or even breathe their typical terrorist invective ( especially exclamations of "Allah Akbar!", which is what the terrorist pilots shouted before smashing their hijacked planes into our cities) their heads should immediately be blown off.
Every neck bracelet should feature a microphone that is turned on 24 hours. If any of the wearers makes any attempt to speak in coded language, to make any threats on the US or its citizens, to attack or question US policy, or to contact known terrorists or their associates, the explosives should be detonated.
Any attempt to disable the microphone or the bracelet itself , or the bracelet's tracking mechanism, should be met with an immediate detonation.
Any necklace wearer who leaves his designated area without explanation, or any necklace wearer who violates curfew, should at minimum receive a severe electic shock that will disable them and keep them from pursuing any terrorist objective.
All neck bracelets should be equipped with sensors for gunpowder and other types of explosives, so if any bracelet wearer should come anywhere near a firearm, or bomb they intend to use or make themselves into a "martyr" with, their intentions should be frustrated.
All Muslims in the US and Western Europe and our Allies (Mexico and Canada) must be satellite tracked and monitored at all times.
Failure to speak cleare and comprehensibe English (since we regrettably do not have enough Arabic or Farsi speakers to monitor them all effectively , at least not at this time) should be met with a series of severe electric shocks. Continued failure to speak in clear and comprehensible English will be met with having the offender's head blown off.
I believe these modest measures will be a great step forward in preventing further acts of terrorism. Any Arab Muslim, Pakistani, or Iranian potential immigrant or tourist should be made aware that wearing the bracelet is a mandatory condition for visiting the US or its allies.