Remember the story on the company that's produced a way to turn organic waste into oil? Well, I've been digging around the web trying to find any hard-nosed skepticism toward them and their products. So far, nothing solid. I really hope this isn't a hoax or a hyped-up overpromise--although it almost has to be, to some level. Even if the technology works, it's hard to believe its investors and inventors won't put forth the most optimistic vision possible of its potential. This is just what people do in these circumstances, even with legitimate technologies and solid business plans.
In the meantime, I did find the Changing World Technologies web site, which is the official site of the company with this supposedly world-changing technology. The claims are interesting, and it certainly doesn't smell like a hoax. They do have a letter from a ConAgra executive, and pictures of their pilot plants, including the one being set up outside the ConAgra plant in Missouri.
They certainly seem to be serious about what they're doing.
Den Beste was busy tonight.. and covered this well.
http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/04/Oilfromgarbage.shtml
Steaming oil?
Addison
I heard an interview about this on NPR in the last week or so, but I can't find a reference to the audio on their site.
Sorry. :(
I read Dan Beste's comment regarding the steaming oil, but I don't find it that remarkable. I don't know how long the fractional distillation process lasts, but when the slurry goes into the distiller, it should be close to 900 degrees, so the oil could have been quite toasty when it was poured. If it was a cold damp morning, wouldn't the hot oil steam?
A system requiring 900 degrees to process is requiring a -lot- of energy input. I doubt the resultant oil has nearly the potential that we expend to create it.
That said, we'd be better off charging batteries, or whatnot.
The only way I can see this kinda thing being sensible is to discover some kind of catalytic process, requiring little to no energy input.
The company claims the process mostly runs on energy produced by gas released in the conversion process.
As for the steam: oil shouldn't steam. Of course, the steam could come from another source.
The company claims the process mostly runs on energy produced by gas released in the conversion process.
Allegedly, 15% of the energy in the feedstock is consumed/wasted in the process. Of course 85 joules of oil is worth a lot more than 100 joules of turkey guts.
As for the steam: oil shouldn't steam. Of course, the steam could come from another source.
Presumably some of the water is still mixed in the oil when it's removed from the converter.
As it happens, I sent links about this story to my daily e-mail list and got this response from someone who works for a company that builds chemical plants. I don't know this person well, but I believe he knows what he's talking about.
"I see schemes like this occasionally in the course of my work. The technology to do these things does exist, but--- the processes aren't economic. The business cases made for them usually assume that they are starting with a 'clean' feedstock, i.e., that the feed is homogeneous, not a mish-mash of whatever people throw into their garbage cans, so that the metals are removed, the rubber/plastic (especially the vinyl chlorides from the polyethylenes,etc.)is separated, and so on. You can turn turkey fat (or any animal or vegetable fat) into a diesel substitute called a methyl ester. That's what biodiesel is. But it costs about 50% more than hydrocarbon-derived diesel, and has a few other problems, though not insurmountable, dealing with pour point, odor, etc.
"I'm generally skeptical of the 'entrepreneurs' who tout this stuff. They're usually looking for investors and government grants, do a lot of arm waving and wild claims to get people pumped up enough to put in some money, but really don't understand what they are touting, except that it is an appealing message. Then they skim off plenty for their 'consulting' services and blame the failure of the project on sabotage by evil oil interests, or needing just a little more money to pay for extra testing, etc. Check their credentials. Lots of Ph.D.s in theology from bible colleges - not chemical engineering from MIT. But then it takes an evangelical spirit combined with a taste for larceny to bring this fraud off. Do you BELIEVE??!!! Send in your money TODAY!!!
"The other major problem most of these schemes have is that they take huge credits for the byproducts (that's the 'mineral' content they say is useful as fertilizer). The actual value of these components is much lower than what is used in their financial analyses, but it all gets lumped in as part of the income to the overall project, which then shows some modest return over a 20-year period, which is way too long. 5 to 10 years is more reasonable, but then the profits never exceed the capital and operating costs. That's because they accelerate the value of the products but never the operating costs over time.
"One of the commenters below claims he/she would be willing to spend another 10% for fuel derived from these sources. Maybe. But I don't see the mass market screaming for biodiesel or E85 ethanol vehicles, even though they are both renewable fuels and theoretically available. The main problem with each (aside from the fact they cost more) is a chicken-and-egg distribution problem. If there is a demand, some capitalist will supply. But there is no demand, so how many people will ACTUALLY spend the extra cash for fuel from renewable sources, as opposed to making altruistic claims in a blog? The answer is in the marketplace.
"Some day it will make economic sense to convert turkey guts/garbage/poop into fuel and lubricants, perhaps, but not yet. Twenty years ago, making ethanol from corn was an energy consumer. With improvements in technology, a stable price for corn due to much higher yields and improved farming techniques, production of ethanol from corn now produces about 35% more energy than it consumes. That positive margin continues to improve. The NCGA and NREL are both funding technologies to improve the conversion of renewable resources into a wide variety of products. Dow-Cargill are operating a huge plant in Nebraska to make biodegradable plastic out of corn - at a cost competitive with plastics from hydrocarbons. More such technologies are on the way."
I am a patent attorney who finds it strange that Paul Baskis,has three U.S. patents, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,269,947 (1993), 5,360,553 (1994), and 5,543,061 (1996), of Baskis that relate to the process for converting matter, such as turkey offal, to oil but Brian Appel's company, Changing World Technologies, Inc., appears to have no other patents than these three. It also appears that CWT, Inc., has filed no patent applications in the prior 18 months as it appears the U.S. Patent Office has published no application that names as an inventor Baskis nor any of their technology or production related employees listed on CWT's website. I would think that CWT would want to continue developing a fence of intellectual property protection that extends well beyond what Baskis patented.
There have been a number of similar schemes to recycle materials or turn waste into energy. One is the Skygas concept using electric arc to vaporize waste (including many hazardous wastes) and utilize the remaining gas for energy.
Another is the magnegas idea.
Anyone care to comment on this (very detailed site with techno and patent info)
www.usmagnegas.com
-- it is supposed to produce relatively clean-burning fuel, fertilizer and water from liquid wastes and crude oil.
Another interesting idea is from itronics.com -- which recycles photographic waste into fertilizer and silver bars.
DMR Notes:
This is a new, recycled technology you sould be causious of About 12 years ago, I did a study on recycling scrap tires and one of the processes I looked into was pyrosis (that is what this process is, no matter what they call it).
The problem with pyrosis was the by-product carbon black. The process produced plenty of CB, but for the overall process to be profitable they had to sell it at top dollar. But the quality the CB process produced was inferior and they could not sell it at any price. In fact, they had to dispose of it as hazardous waste, at a major expense.
Some quotes from the article:
"So far, says Adams, 'nothing hazardous comes out from any feedstock we try.'"
BS: Heavy metals IN, heavy metals OUT. It don't evaporate. Municipal solid waste is loaded with heavy metals. I don't think the EPA will let you spread it around as fertilizer.
"Polyvinyl chloride, or PVC—the stuff of house siding, wallpapers, and plastic pipes—yields hydrochloric acid, a relatively benign and industrially valuable chemical used to make cleaners and solvents."
Yes, it is true HCL is an important industrial chemical, But I don't know if I would believe anything someone that describes HCL as "relatively benign".
The federal government has granted more than $12 million to push the work along. "
Does anyone know if this is true: If true, EPA should have been involved.
Dexter M. Russell, Sr.
And about 35 years ago today, everyone said no man can run a mile under four minutes.
"Check their credentials. Lots of Ph.D.s in theology from bible colleges - not chemical engineering from MIT."
What prompted you to make this statement? I looked at the credentials lists, and the degrees are mostly from Ivy League universities, not Bible colleges, and I can't find any theology majors listed amongst the PhDs (which are from a variety of disciplines).
RD
On the subject of MIT, someone wrote a comment in response to an article on this subject in their "Technology Review" section:
"Private investors, including Warren Buffett's son, Howard, have committed $40,000,000 to the development of this process, together with $12,000,000 in federal funding. The cost of the resulting light oil is estimated at $15 a barrel, with a target of $10 a barrel in three to five years, and lower costs after that. The first plant, adjacent to the Conagra Butterball plant in Carthage, Missouri, cost 2$20,000,000 to build, and will convert 200+ tons of of turkey leftovers to about 1,330 barrels of oil a day, or about 500,000 barrels a year. Howard Buffett says "I represent ConAgra's investment. We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't anticipate success." The article concludes that by 2005, it should be evident whether the technology is as marvelous as its proponents claim."
I think it's a little early to be writing this process off as a fraud perpetrated by Christian fundamentalists.
RD
Yet another comment from MIT's Technology Review:
"And the system handles not only turkey offal but tires, plastics, sludge, municipal waste, paper, and livestock remains—expanding its potential for widespread use. 'They have certainly produced the products they’ve claimed at a smaller scale,' says MIT chemical engineer Jefferson Tester, who visited a pilot plant in Philadelphia and is intrigued by the larger-scale possibilities."
You want MIT opinions, there you go. :)
RD
"...I really hope this isn't a hoax or a hyped-up overpromise--although it almost has to be, to some level."
Why do all the defenders of the "liberal tradition" hate to admit that science really can fix our problems?
I first heard about this company from an article published recently in Discover magazine . It answers a lot of the questions posted here. The quote posted by R.J. Dunnill(May 23, 2003) is part of what I read in that article. I think it was the April 2003 issue. Hope this helps to clarify the skepticism.
I should point out for those who didn't already know that the process of thermal depolymerization has been around for several decades. The problem was that it required too much energy input and the oil produced was of poor quality. CWT has merely taken an existing process and improved on it to the point where it is commercially viable. One critical problem blocking the commercial viability of TD was that of expelling excess water from the mix, which CWT says they solved using their patented "flashing" process.
RD
Disappointing news: I called CWT, and was told that the Carthage plant has yet to go online.
RD
IM an investor, and it will work! and make $ on the first out plant..
3 weeks and you will see.
There is another technology that might be of interest which is called Reverse Polymerization Process. (http://www.ewmc.com). They are concentrating on tire an medical waste streams.
I too invested in this process in the mid 90s. Mr Baskis was then the pres. of International Technologies Inc. I believe me and others like me were, who Mr Baskis was refering to when he spoke of "wooing investors" (Discover magazine page 52, par. 6). I would like to here from others who were wooed as well ! Or shall I say SCAMMED?
"Does anyone know if this is true: If true, EPA should have been involved."
From EPA Mid-Atlantic Region Newsletter for the week ending July 11, 2003:
"REGION 3 OFFICIALS VISIT EPA-FUNDED WASTE-TO-OIL PILOT PLANT
EPA Region 3 officials toured the Changing World Technologies plant in the Naval Business Center in Philadelphia on July 7. The plant uses an innovative, toxic- and emissions-free Thermal Depolymerization (TDP) process that converts hydrocarbons and organic materials (including turkey guts, municipal sludge, tires, and medical waste) into marketable high-quality, clean fuels and specialty chemicals for industrial and commercial use. Changing World Technologies received $12 million from the U.S. Department of Energy, and EPA and raised an additional $30 million from outside investors for the pilot plant's construction. "
I called CWT today, and was told that the Carthage plant is now on-line, although not at full capacity (they're ironing out a couple of bugs).
RD