A chat about Modernism and Popes with @Naughty_Eskimo

Yes it's OK if you disagree with him, but you can chill out, Catholics aren't stupid and the Pope is still Catholic.
Yes it’s OK if you disagree with him, but you can chill out, Catholics aren’t stupid and the Pope is still Catholic.

An honest critic/skeptic of Pope Francis opens up a larger conversation to explain how better to understand when Popes are behaving oddly. I liked the exchange and I think it may help provide some perspective to those who worry too much when they hear Pope Francis has gone Commie, or off on some other crazy supposed Papist plot to undermine Western civilization.

Francis isn’t perfect by the way. Most Catholics love him but we all know he’s not perfect. So does he.

What happens if the Pope condemns Islam or Islamic Terrorism?

This is a fun sentiment. But careful what you wish for.
This is a fun sentiment. But careful what you wish for.

Many people are frustrated by Pope Francis because even in the middle of a wave of uncontrolled immigration and the violence and disruption it brings to much of Europe, he keeps talking about peace and love and tolerance and religious freedom instead.

I keep making this point to those on the AltRight and others who keep complaining that Pope Francis is too nice about Islam and Muslims. Here is a Tweetstorm I did recently which summarizes my response to such sentiments:

By the way, you will notice Pope Francis talks about the need for religious tolerance and religious freedom. He does it constantly. He mentions it every time the subject of Islam comes up.

You’re aware that Catholics, and other Orthodox Christians, are denied religious freedom in many lands including many Muslim lands, right?

It’s those same Christians who will be hit if he tries being nasty. If you think the Islamists can’t do worse than they have, you’re mistaken.

The Pope doesn’t have a gun to his head. He’s looking at a gun pointed to innocent Christian heads. I do not know why people cannot hear him practically screaming this between bouts of “help the poor” and “be kind to your fellow man” and “religious freedom for all.”

That won’t prevent Catholics or anyone else from doing what has to be done if war does come. Please just don’t ask the Pope to start it for you.

*Update 1*:

There are those who think the Pope is automatically obeyed in all things. Or cannot be criticized. This is false. See Yes Popes Say Stupid and Tone Deaf Things. For those who think he’s a Secret Commie (or Patriarchal Oppressor), see Wives Submit: orthodox Christian perspective for a lengthy examination of why I don’t think he’s a Secret Commie.

I would add this as an addendum: Some are uncomfortable with Francis because he sometimes uses the language of “Liberation Theology.” If anyone is interested I’ll write up something short on why I still don’t think that makes him a Commie and why it wouldn’t matter (much) even if he was a Communist. Let me know if interested.

There’s worse things that a tone-deaf preacher talking about peace and tolerance when war is pretty obviously about to break out.

I would otherwise: Catholics aren’t obligated to vote the way the Pope tells us to and oh, by the way, he doesn’t tell us how to vote to begin with. If it comes to war, Catholics will serve, even if the Vatican is yelling about peace and love. If you think hard about it, it’s better that way. Really.


*Update 2*: If you’re still not getting it, here’s a world map of where Islam is mostly:

This is the heaviest concentrations of the world's muslims.
This is the heaviest concentrations of the world’s muslims.

Here, by comparison, is where you find the heaviest population of Catholics. Note the tens of millions of Catholics who are minorities in or near Muslim lands:

Pay attention to the many Catholics who are in or near Muslim lands.
Pay attention to the many Catholics who are in or near Muslim lands.

Finally, note the presence of Eastern, Coptic, and other non-Roman Catholic Orthodox right smack in the middle of Muslim lands, who will face repercussions even if they say they hate the Pope:

Do you think they'll listen to Patriarch Bartholomew or Tawadros if they say "We don't agree, we don't even like him!"
Do you think they’ll listen to Patriarch Bartholomew or Tawadros if they say “We don’t agree, we don’t even like him!” This is where all those Orthodox Christians are. Note the overlap with Muslims.


I especially recommend focusing on what the maps show of Africa and the Middle East.

Do you think anyone will care if those Orthodox Christians aren’t technically aligned with the Pope? Do you think ISIS would care?

The Ethno-Nationalist is not my Enemy. The Communist is.

made in the uSA
Remember when Americans slaughtered everyone who got in their way with movements like this? Yeah me neither.

There is (understandable) growing concern in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian circles about the growth of Ethnic Nationalism in North America and Europe.

I left a comment about it on this First Things article that says “Catholics must resist ethno-Nationalim” that I’ll expand upon here.

Uhm, no. No we mustn’t necessarily resist it. We should be cautious, not terrified.

Yes, Ethno-Nationalists killed many Catholics and also Eastern Orthodox Christians in history. That’s not an indictment. It’s just a fact.

The Scottish Nationalist Party is a perfectly sane Ethno-Nationalist party that may be unpopular but is hardly the locus of evil in the British Isles.
The Scottish Nationalist Party is a perfectly sane Ethno-Nationalist party that may be disliked by some but is hardly the locus of evil in the British Isles.

However! Depraved (or just stupid) Catholics, as well as people from other religious and political and ethnic groups, have committed (or unwittingly abetted) atrocities too.

Furthermore, there have been multiple Ethno-Nationalist governments and entities never turned into depraved genocidal lunatics. There are numerous examples from  history of non-evil, sane Nationalists.  Today’s Scottish Nationalist Party is hardly getting ready to Smite the English and raze Wales, after all.

By comparison, with only a few exceptions here and there, most of the last century’s genocidal  maniacs were Communists, not Nationalists.

The history of Communism shows clearly: they always wind up murdering Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and then pretty much any otherc, 100% of the time sooner or later.

Nationalists, this is not so.

I learned a lot from this book. I have some reservations about it but it’s brilliant and insightful–and its real name should probably be “Crypto-Communists Always Lie.”

Yes you may meet the Commie, the Social Justice Warrior of today, and he may try to be your friend. He may even try to talk about so-called “Liberation Theology” and how Communism is ultimately Christian. Never believe him. A committed Communist is a Committed Social Justice Warrior–and as Vox they always lie.

If you even hear about Liberation Theology, note its history: it was once suppressed as clearly Marxist, then evolved into something more practical: “Liberation” in the current Catholic thinking, for those who know it, includes Liberation from ANYTHING that is SPIRITUALLY oppressive. And such liberation cannot be done through force of arms or draconian means that harm others.

Yes, you may have heard the phrase “Social Justice” was originally Catholic. That’s because it was. So were “brotherhood of man” and “universal love.” These reflect core concept of this nature:

  • Slavery is wrong.
  • Treating your employees like property is bad.
  • If a whole group of people are hurting, help them if you reasonably can.
  • Don’t treat people from another religion or race as inferior to yourself.
  • Try to grant equal dignity to every human being, male or female, you meet. (Unless they make it impossible, obviously.)

Those all sound “liberal.” They aren’t. They’re ancient Christian ideas, and not just Catholic ones by the way.

Historically, Communists have a habit of stealing Catholic terms. Sometimes we steal them back. No, Pope Francis really is NOT a Liberation Theology Commie, even though his choice of words sometimes sound a sour note for people who know what real Commie propaganda is.

Pope Francis strongly affirms way too many things the closet-Commie “Liberation Theology” hate, and that 100% of serious Communists hate.

I left the following comment on First Things, which I’ve cleaned up a couple typos on, which may clarify things for anyone wondering, and may also be comfort for Catholics who are afraid:

Unlike the Communist, the Nationalist doesn’t necessarily have to be our enemy. Neither, frankly, does the self-described Race Realist. Indeed, the notion that some races may be smarter, or slower, or better dancers, or more spiritual, or whatever because of genetics? Whether you believe that stuff or not, that isn’t necessarily unCatholic either.

The things that are unCatholic are genuine race hate, genuine and real oppression, unprovoked and unnecessary violence, that sort of thing. “Hey Hungarian dork” isn’t hate. “Torment Hungarians for sport!” is.

Furthemore, segregated communities are not necessarily unChristian. Some people may not like the idea but that doesn’t make it unChristian. Yes, segregation may cause evils, especially if it’s forced and brutal. But integration, especially forced integration, can cause many evils too.

There is no reason you cannot fiercely love your country and support it from those who would attack it or are tearing it down. There’s no reason you can’t love your ethnicity either. Only Ethno-Racial stereotyping of individuals, in a genuinely harmful way (not a “hurt your fee fees” way), is the real sin. Check an authoritative Church source and you’ll likely find none disagree.

The fact is that because Atheism is on the rise, it is to be expected that hardcore Nationalism and hardcore Communism both should be making a rise. And that may be the key to the Nationalism debate: Atheist Nationalists tend to worship the State or The Race. And by the way, yes Hitler was an Atheist–he started somewhat Christian but multiple documents of his own words show that by the end, he was an atheist as was his entire inner circle, including the occultists. (NB: most occultists are Atheist or lean that way.)

On the other hand, genuinely Godly Ethno-Nationalists, who know and acknowledge God is ultimately Supreme, not the Nation or the Race, who respect the human dignity of foreigners who are no threat, who do not think The State or “The Race” are always righteous and never wrong–these are people with whom we can get along, even if we are sometimes uncomfortable or in disagreement.

One thing is for sure: with the rise of Atheism is also the rise of people’s need to feel connected. Communism is very nearly totally impossible to work with Catholics, which is why they always get around to murdering us. But the Ethno-Nationalists? No. They can be reasoned with. They can be lived with. They can be shown respect, and thereby, their grievances can be heard, and not just slapped down with contempt and rage.

For any Ethno-Nationalist readers: I do not need to be your enemy. We don’t need to be your enemy. Most Catholics just want to practice our faith without harassment, and we are willing to talk if you have grievances. By comparison, the Communist is invariably our enemy: the Communist always lies, and always murders the faithful the minute they’re no longer useful.

This is why we should be concerned about the rise of Ethno-Nationalism, but blindly opposing it is STOOOPID. If poor working class whites, or whites who are now a minority in their own communities, cannot speak for their interests as a group, they WILL eventually turn violent, and it will be understandable why: you can’t just keep beating them down (which our cultural elites have done to a LOT of working whites. See the work of our Eastern Orthodox brother Rod Dreher of The American Conservative for more on that).

Our main goal as Christians should not be to hate the Ethno-Nationalists, or blindly “oppose” them. It should be to listen to them, and hopefully find where we can find shared faith in God and common ground. That’s the Catholic way to treat practically ANYBODY, after all.

Finally, I’ll leave this video, which I distribute to my right-wing pals every time they hear 80 year old Pope Francis using words that were popular when he was younger in South America, thinking he’s turned Commie. No, he hasn’t, even if he makes some Catholics cringe sometimes at his choice of words: